One Can Happen

January 16, 2015

The Inadequate Historical Precedent for “Once Saved, Always Saved” — “How could a doctrine this important—if true—remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history? Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history”

From: fwponline.cc/v21n1/v21n1witzki.html

The Inadequate Historical Precedent for “Once Saved, Always Saved”

Steve Witzki

John Jefferson Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine” [Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian. Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that “once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin. This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity.

While the first extensive discussion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is found in Augustine’s Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance, written around A. D. 429, Augustine believed it was possible to experience the justifying grace of God and yet not persevere to the end. Augustine did believe God’s elect would certainly persevere to the end, but he denied that a person could know they were in the elect and he also warned it was possible to be justified but not among the elect. Not until Calvin was unconditional election, permanent regeneration, and certitude of final perseverance all connected.

James Akin, a Catholic theologian, said in a debate with Calvinist theologian James White that no one before Calvin taught that predestination to grace automatically entails predestination to glory.

You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it.

This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, “How could a doctrine this important–if true–remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quearters of all of Church history?”

Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it,that Jesus Christ was God. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ is fully man as well as fully God. And Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that they were saved purely by God’s grace.

So when it turns out that Christians never knew that true Christians can never fall away, and then suddenly 1500 years later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is conveying the true teaching of the apostles and who is teaching the heresy “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?”

Akin’s remarks are accurate and problematic for Calvinist scholars. Furthermore, the Calvinist does not fare any better when one looks even more deeply into what the early Christians believed about this issue. In 1998, Hendrickson Publishers printed A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of “Salvation,” we find the question, “Can those who are saved ever be lost?” After several Scriptural passages are quoted [2 Chron 15:2; Ezek 33:12; Matt 10:22; Luke 9:62; 2 Tim 2:12; Heb 10:26; 2 Pet 2:20-21], five pages of quotes are given from the writings of early Christian leaders. These quotes give evidence that the early church did not believe in “once saved, always saved.” They taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God in hell [pp. 586-591].

David Bercot, editor of this dictionary, also wrote a provocative book called, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? It takes today’s Evangelical Church, both its lifestyle and teaching, and looks at it in the light of early Christian teaching. It is an interesting book that comes from someone who has read through the entire works of the Ante-Nicene Fathers more than once. He writes, 

Since the early Christians believed that our continued faith and obedience are necessary for salvation, it naturally follows that they believed that a “saved” person could still end up being lost. For example, Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp, wrote, “Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him…. Therefore we should not be puffed up…. But we should beware lest somehow, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom” (Heb. 6:4-6) [p. 65].

What the Christian Church historically believed about the security of the believer is not the ultimate test for determining our stance on this issue today, but the lack of historical precedent should serve as a warning. Before John Calvin, the teaching of unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the universal church through the centuries. Therefore, while the Scriptures are the ultimate test for truth on this issue, “once saved, always saved” teachers need to acknowledge that their doctrine is historically an anomaly. Furthermore, the brand of “once saved, always saved” teaching that tells people that they can stop believing and still be on their way to heaven (but with less rewards) is nowhere to be found in historic Christianity prior to the twentieth century.

Related:

“For The TIME WILL COME when THEY WILL NOT LISTEN to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves TEACHERS AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS; and will TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and turn aside to *FABLES*” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

2 Peter 3: BEWARE, in the LAST DAYS People Will Be WILLINGLY IGNORANT

Kevin Conner on the Believer’s CONDITIONAL Security: “OBEDIENCE IS the very law of SECURITY for all created beings. There can be NO SUCH THING as UNCONDITIONAL security.”

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”

OSAS Arminians—Molinists in Disguise?

Filed under: Doctrines Demystified,Doctrines of Demons?,Who Goes to Heaven — Jeff Fenske @ 11:02 am

From: thecenterfortheologicalstudies.blogspot.com

OSAS Arminians—Molinists in Disguise?

While reading Dr. Ken Keathley’s chapter titled “Eternal Life,” in his book “Salvation and Sovereignty: A Molinist Approach,” some confusing theological issues (in my mind, at least), started coming together. Things that never quite made sense to me began to make sense. One of those issues concerns “OSAS Arminians,” called “Once-Saved-Always-Saved Arminians.” OSAS Arminians stand out from their fellow Arminians because, unlike the remaining Arminians, OSASers believe in guaranteed perseverance of the saints. In other words, those who believe, the elect, will infallibly persevere. For the Arminian system, however, this is an inconsistency: in the five-point Arminian system, since grace is resistible and election is conditional upon faith, then perseverance is conditional upon the continued endurance in the race of life set before us. In other words, perseverance is conditional in that it is based upon the commitment of the believer. If the believer decides to fall away due to temptation (as did one of the soils in Luke 8), then that person has forfeited their inheritance in Christ (i.e., eternal life). To use biblical terminology, like Esau, they have forfeited their “birthright” to eternal life and “the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven” (Heb. 12:23, NKJV). …

OSASers then, by virtue of their views of perseverance (infallible) and grace (overcoming) could no longer identify themselves as “Arminians,” but as “Molinists.”

Entire Article Here

Related:

Kevin Conner on the Believer’s CONDITIONAL Security: “OBEDIENCE IS the very law of SECURITY for all created beings. There can be NO SUCH THING as UNCONDITIONAL security.”

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”

December 24, 2014

“Whoever or whatever rules over us is in fact our Lord” – Rick Joyner

Filed under: Doctrines Demystified,FreedomQuotes,Who Goes to Heaven — Jeff Fenske @ 11:59 pm

“Whoever or whatever rules over us is in fact our Lord.”

Create A Life that FEELS GOOD on the inside – not one that just LOOKS GOOD on the outside

Filed under: Doctrines Demystified,FreedomQuotes,Who Goes to Heaven — Jeff Fenske @ 3:25 pm

Only a life that FEELS RIGHT NOW will FEEL RIGHT WHEN…

No Condemnation now so No Condemnation when we meet Jesus face to Face — Hearts pure, smiling so big!!! FREEeeeeeeee———–DOM!!!!!!!

***

CreateALifeThatFeelsGood

October 20, 2014

“We cannot earn grace, but on the other hand, we must fulfill the conditions to receive it”

Filed under: Doctrines Demystified,Who Goes to Heaven — Jeff Fenske @ 4:46 am

“We cannot earn grace, but on the other hand,
we must fulfill the conditions to receive it.”

Michael Fackerell

Related:

(video) Asbury Revival, 1970: RECONCILIATION the KEY! — “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘I just hit my 34th person and I’m free!’”

God’s Remedy for James-3 Cursing & Partysville in Today’s Church is James 4 — Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts. Let your laughter be turned to mourning… Humble yourselves and He will exalt you!

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT”

 

September 21, 2014

Charles Finney (1835): Instruction of Young Converts — “AIM AT BEING PERFECT. It should be their constant purpose to live wholly to God…. IF THEY SHOULD SIN it would be an inconsistency…. THEY OUGHT NOT TO SIN AT ALL; they are bound to be as holy as God is. And young converts should be taught to set out in the right course OR THEY WILL NEVER BE RIGHT”

This feels so good — so right — the actual LIBERATION from the bondage of sin — as Paul wrote in Romans 8:1:

“There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”

– –

Charles Grandison Finney (August 29, 1792 – August 16, 1875) was an American Presbyterian minister and leader in the Second Great Awakening in the United States. He has been called The Father of Modern Revivalism.[1] Finney was best known as an innovative revivalist during the period 1825-1835 in upstate New York and Manhattan, an opponent of Old School Presbyterian theology, an advocate of Christian perfectionism, and a religious writer.

Together with several other evangelical leaders, his religious views led him to promote social reforms, such as abolition of slavery and equal education for women and African Americans. From 1835 he taught at Oberlin College of Ohio, which accepted both genders and all races. He served as its second president from 1851 to 1866, during which its faculty and students were activists for abolition, the Underground Railroad, and universal education. (source)

* * *

 LECTURES ON REVIVALS OF RELIGION

by The Rev. CHARLES G. FINNEY

 LECTURE XX.

INSTRUCTION OF YOUNG CONVERTS.

 

TEXT.–“Feed My lambs.”–John xxi. 15.

 

I REMARKED on this text in my last lecture, and was obliged, for want of time, to omit many of the points which I wished to present in regard to the

INSTRUCTION OF YOUNG CONVERTS. To-night I propose to continue the subject by noticing,

I. Several other points upon which young converts ought to be instructed.

II. To show the manner in which young converts should be treated by the church.

III. Mention some of the evils which naturally result from defective instructions given in that stage of Christian experience.

 

I. I shall pursue the subject, taking it up where I left off, by mentioning some further instructions which it is important should be given to young converts.

1. It is of great importance that young converts should early be made to understand what religion consists in. Perhaps you will be surprised at my mentioning this. “What! Are they converts, and do they not know what religion consists in?” I answer, They would know, if they had had no instruction but such as is drawn from the Bible. But multitudes of people have imbibed such notions about religion, that not only young converts, but a great part of the church do not know what religion consists in, so as to have a clear and distinct idea of it. There are many ministers who do not. I do not mean to say that they have no religion, for it may be charitably believed they have; but what I mean is, that they do not discriminate as to what it consists in, and cannot give a correct statement of what does and what does not constitute real religion. It is important that young converts should be taught,

Negatively, what religion does not consist in.

(1.) Not in doctrinal knowledge. Knowledge is essential to religion, but it is not religion. The devil has doctrinal knowledge, but he has no religion. A man may have doctrinal knowledge to any extent, without a particle of religion. Yet some people have very strange ideas on this subject, as though having doctrinal knowledge indicated an increase of piety. I once heard a remark of this kind. In a certain instance, where some young converts had made rapid progress in doctrinal knowledge, a person who saw it said, “How these young converts grow in grace.” Here he confounded improvement in knowledge with improvement in piety. The truth was, that he had no means of judging of their growth in grace, and it was no evidence of it because they were making progress in doctrinal knowledge.

(2.) They should be taught that religion is not a substance. It is not any root, or sprout, or seed, or any thing else in the mind, as a part of the mind itself. Persons often speak of religion as if it was something that may be covered up in the mind, just as a spark of fire may be covered up in the ashes, which does not show itself, and which produces no effects, but yet lives and is ready to act as soon as it is uncovered. And in like manner they think they may have religion, as something remaining in them, although they do not manifest it by obeying God. But they should be taught that this is not the nature of religion. It is not part of the mind itself, nor of the body, nor is it a root, or seed, or spark, that can exist and yet be hid and produce no effects.

(3.) Teach them that religion does not consist in raptures, or extacies,[sic.] or high flights of feeling. There may be a great deal of these where there is religion. But it ought to be understood that they are all involuntary emotions, and may exist in full power where there is no religion. They may be the mere workings of the imagination, without any truly religious affection at all. Persons may have them to such a degree as actually to swoon away with ecstasy, even on the subject of religion, without having any religion. I have known one person almost carried away with rapture, by a mere view of the natural attributes of God, his power and wisdom, as displayed in the starry heavens, and yet the person had no religion. Religion is obedience to God, the voluntary submission of the soul to the will of God .

(4.) Neither does religion consist in going to meeting or reading the Bible, or praying, or any other of what are commonly called religious duties. The very phrase, “religious duties,” ought to be stricken out of the vocabulary of young converts. They should be made to know that these acts are not religion. Many become very strict in performing certain things, which they call religious duties, and suppose that is being religious; while they are careless about the ordinary duties of life, which in fact constitute A LIFE OF PIETY. Prayer may be an expression and an act of piety, or it may not be. Going to church or to a prayer meeting, may be considered either as a means, an act, or an expression of pious sentiment; but the performance of these, does not constitute a man a Christian, and there may be great strictness and zeal in these, without a particle of religion. If young converts are not taught to discriminate, they may be led to think there is something peculiar in what are called religious duties, and to imagine they have a great deal of religion because they abound in certain actions that are commonly called religious duties, although they may at the same time be very deficient in honesty or faithfulness or punctuality, or temperance, or any other of what they choose to call their common duties. They may be very punctilious in some things, may tithe mint, anise and cummin, and yet neglect the weightier matters of the law, justice and the love of God.

(5.) Religion does not consist in desires to do good actions. Desires that do not result in choice and action are not virtuous. Nor are such desires necessarily vicious. They may arise involuntarily in the mind, in view of certain objects, but while they produce no voluntary act, they are no more virtuous or vicious than the beating of the pulse, except in cases where we have indirectly willed them into existence, by voluntarily putting ourselves under circumstances to excite them. The wickedest man on earth may have strong desires after holiness. Did you ever think of that? He may see clearly that holiness is the only and indispensable means of happiness. And the moment he apprehends holiness as a means of happiness, he naturally desires it. It is to be feared, that multitudes are deceiving themselves with the supposition, that a desire for holiness, as a means of happiness, is religion. Many doubtless, give themselves great credit for desires that never result in choosing right. They feel desires to do their duty, but do not choose to do it, because upon the whole they have still stronger desires not to do it. In such desires, there is no virtue. An action or desire to be virtuous in the sight of God, must be an act of the will. People often talk most absurdly on this subject, as though their desires had anything good, while they remain mere desires. “I think I desire to do so and so.” But do you do it. “O no, but I often feel a desire to do it.” This is practical atheism.

Whatever desires a person may have, if they are not carried out into actual choice and action, they are not virtuous. And no degree of desire is itself virtuous. If this idea could be made prominent, and fully riveted in the minds of men, it would probably annihilate the hopes of half the church, who are living on their good desires, while doing nothing for God.

(6.) They should be made to understand that nothing which is selfish, is religion. Whatever desires they may have, and whatever choices and actions they may put forth, if after all the reason of them is selfish, there is no religion in them. A man may just as well commit sin in praying, or reading the Bible, or going to meeting, as in any thing else, if his motive is selfish. Suppose a man prays simply with a view to promote his own happiness. Is that religion? What is it, but attempting to make God his almighty servant? It is nothing else but to attempt a great speculation, and put the universe, God and all, under contribution to make him happy. It is the sublime degree of wickedness. It is so far from being piety, that it is in fact superlative wickedness.

(7) Nothing is acceptable to God, as religion, unless it is performed heartily, to please God. No outward action has any thing good, or any thing that God approves, unless it is performed from right motives, and from the heart.

(b) Young converts should be taught fully and positively that all religion consists in obeying God from the heart. All religion consists in voluntary action. All that is holy, all that is lovely in the sight of God, all that is properly called religion, consists in voluntary action, in voluntarily obeying the will of God from the heart.

2. Young converts should be taught that the duty of self-denial is one of the leading features of the gospel. They should understand that they are not pious at all, any farther than they are willing to take up their cross daily, and deny themselves, for Christ. There is but very little self-denial in the church, and the reason is, that the duty is so much lost sight of, in giving instruction to young converts. How seldom are they told that self-denial is the leading feature of Christianity. In pleading for benevolent objects, how often will you find, that ministers and agents do not even ask Christians to deny themselves for the sake of promoting the object. They only ask them to give what they can spare as well as not, in other words, to offer unto the Lord that which costs them nothing. What an abomination! They only ask for the surplus, for what they do not want, for what they can give just as well as not. There is no religion in this kind of giving. A man may give to a benevolent object, a hundred thousand dollars, and there would be no religion in it, if he could give it as well as not, and there was no self-denial in it. Jesus Christ exercised self-denial to save sinners. So has God the Father exercised self-denial in giving his Son to die for us, and in sparing us, and in bearing with our perverseness. The Holy Ghost exercises self-denial, in condescending to strive with such unholy beings to bring them to God. The angels exercise self-denial, in watching over this world. The apostles planted the Christian religion among the nations by the exercise of self-denial. And are we to think of being religious without any self-denial? Are we to call ourselves Christians, the followers of Christ, the temples of the Holy Ghost, and to claim fellowship with the apostles, when we have never deprived ourselves of any thing that would promote our personal enjoyment for the sake of promoting Christ’s kingdom? Young converts should be made to see that unless they are willing to lay themselves out for God, and ready to sacrifice life and every thing else for Christ, they have not the spirit of Christ, and are none of his.

3. They must be taught what sanctification is. “What!” you will say, “do not all who are Christians know what sanctification is?” No, many do not. Multitudes would be as much at a loss to tell intelligibly what sanctification is, as they would be to tell what religion is. If the question were asked of every professor of religion in this city, What is sanctification? I doubt if one in ten would give a right answer. They would blunder just as they do when they undertake to tell what religion is, and speak of it as something dormant in the soul, something that is put in, and lies there, something that may be practised or not, and still be in them. So they speak of sanctification as if it were a sort of washing off of some defilement, or a purging out of some physical impurity. Or they will speak of it as if the faculties were steeped in sin, and sanctification is taking out the stains. This is the reason why some people will pray for sanctification, and practise sin, evidently supposing that sanctification is something that precedes obedience. They should be taught that sanctification is not something that precedes obedience, some change in the nature or the constitution of the soul. But sanctification is obedience, and, as a progressive thing, consists in obeying God more and more perfectly.

4. Young converts should be taught so as to understand what perseverance is. It is astonishing how people talk about perseverance. As if the doctrine of perseverance was Once in grace, always in grace,” or, “Once converted, sure to go to heaven.” This is not the idea of perseverance. The true idea is, that if a man is truly converted, he will continue to obey God. And as a consequence, he will surely go to heaven. But if a person gets the idea, that because he is converted, therefore he will assuredly go to heaven, that man will almost assuredly go to hell.

5. Young converts should be taught to be religious in every thing. They should aim to be religious in every department of life and in all that they do. If they do not aim at this, they should understand that they have no religion at all. If they do not intend and aim to keep all the commandments of God, what pretence can they make to piety? Whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. He is justly subject to the whole penalty. If he disobeys God habitually in one particular, he does not in fact obey him in any particular. Obedience to God consists in the state of the heart. It is being willing to obey God; willing that God should rule in all things. But if a man habitually disobeys God, in any one particular, he is in a state of mind, that renders obedience in any thing else impossible. To say that in some things a man obeys God, out of respect to his authority, and that in some other things he refuses obedience, is absurd. The fact is, that obedience to God consists in an obedient state of heart, a preference of God’s authority and commandments to every thing else. If, therefore, an individual appears to obey in some things, and yet perseveringly and knowingly disobeys in any one thing, he is deceived. He offends in one point, and this proves that he is guilty of all; in other words, that he does not, from the heart, obey at all. A man may pray half of the time and have no religion; if he does not keep the commandments of God, his very prayer will be hateful to God. “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.” Do you hear that? If a man refuses to obey God’s law, if he refuses to comply with any one duty, he cannot pray, he has no religion, his very devotions are hateful.

6. Young converts, by proper instructions, are easily brought to be “temperate in all things.” Yet this is a subject greatly neglected in regard to young converts, and almost lost sight of in the churches. There is a vast deal of intemperance in the churches. I do not mean intemperate drinking, in particular, but intemperance in eating, and in living generally. There is in fact but little conscience about it in the churches. And therefore the progress of reform in the matter is so slow. Nothing but an enlightened conscience can carry forward a permanent reform. Ten years ago, most ministers used ardent spirit, and kept it in their houses to treat their friends and their ministering brethren with. And the great body of the members in the churches did the same. Now there are but few of either, who are not actual drunkards, that will do so. But still there are many that indulge without scruple in the use of wine. Chewing and smoking tobacco are mere acts of intemperance. If they use these mere stimulants when there is no necessity for it, what is that but intemperance? That is not being temperate in all things. Until Christians shall have a conscience on this subject, and be made to feel that they have no right to be intemperate in any thing, they will make but little progress in religion. It is well known, or ought to be, that TEA AND COFFEE have no nutriment in them [Many health practitioners today would disagree, when taken in moderation – editor]. They are mere stimulants. They go through the system without being digested. The milk and sugar you put in them are nourishing. And so they would be just as much so, if you mixed them with rum, and made milk punch. But the tea and coffee afford no nourishment. And yet I dare say, that a majority of the families in this city give more in a year for their tea and coffee, than they do to save the world from hell. Probably this is true respecting entire churches. Even agents of benevolent societies will dare to go through the churches soliciting funds, for the support of missionary and other institutions, and yet use tea, coffee, and, in some cases tobacco. Strange! There is now in this city, an agent employed in soliciting funds, who uses all three of these worse than useless stimulants. No doubt many are giving five times as much for mere intemperance, as they give for every effort to save the world. If the church could be made to know how much they spend for what are mere poisons and nothing else, they would be amazed. Sit down and talk with many persons, and they will strenuously maintain that they cannot get along without these stimulants, these poisons, and they cannot give them up–no, not to redeem the world from eternal damnation. And very often they will absolutely show anger if argued with, just as soon as the argument begins to pinch their consciences. O, how long shall the church show her hypocritical face at the Monthly Concert, and pray God to save the world, while she is actually throwing away five times as much for sheer intemperance, as she will give to save the world. Some of you may think these are little things, and that it is quite beneath the dignity of the pulpit to lecture against tea and coffee. But I tell you it is a great mistake of yours, if you think these are little things, when they make the church odious in the sight of God, by exposing her hypocrisy and lust. Here is an individual who pretends he has given himself up to serve Jesus Christ, and yet he refuses to deny himself any darling lust, and then he will go and pray, “O Lord, save the world; O Lord, thy Kingdom come.” I tell you it is hypocrisy. Shall such prayers be heard? Unless men are willing to deny themselves, I would not give a groat for the prayers of as many such professors as would cover the whole United States.

These things must be taught to young converts. It must come to this point in the church, that men shall not be called Christians, unless they will cut off the right hand, and pluck out the right eye, and deny themselves for Christ’s sake. A little thing? See it poison the spirit of prayer! See it debase and sensualize the soul! Is that a trifle beneath the dignity of the pulpit? When these intemperate indulgences, of one kind and another, cost the church five times if not fifty times more than all they do for the salvation of the world.

An estimate has recently been made, showing, that the United States consume seven millions of dollars worth of coffee yearly; and who does not know, that a great part of this is consumed by the church. And yet, grave ministers and members of Christian churches are not ashamed to be seen countenancing this enormous waste of money; while at the same time, the poor heathen are sending upon every wind of heaven, their agonizing wail for help. Heaven calls from above, “go preach the Gospel to every creature.” Hell groans from beneath, and ten thousand voices cry out from heaven, earth, and hell, “Do something to save the world!” Do it now! O, NOW, or millions more are in hell through your neglect. And, O, tell it not in Gath, the church, the ministry, will not deny even their lusts, to save a world. Is this Christianity? What business have you to use Christ’s money for such a purpose? Are you a steward? Who gave you this liberty? Look to it, lest it should be found at last, that you have preferred self-gratification to obedience, and made a “god of your belly.”

The time to teach these things with effect, is when they are young converts. If converts are not properly taught then, if they get a wrong habit, and begin with an easy, self-indulgent mode of living, it is rare that they are ever thoroughly reformed. I have conversed with old professors on these subjects, and have been astonished at their pertinacious obstinacy in indulging their lusts. And I am satisfied that the church never can rise out of this sloth until young converts are faithfully taught in the outset of their religious course to be temperate in all things.

7. They should be taught to have just as much religion in all their business, as they have in prayer, or in going to meeting. They should be just as holy, just as watchful, aim just as singly at the glory of God, be just as sincere and solemn, in all their daily employments, as when they come to the throne of grace. If they are not, their Sabbath performances will be an abomination.

8. They should be taught that it is necessary for them to be just as holy as they think ministers ought to be. There has for a long time been an idea that ministers are bound to be holy and practice self-denial. And so they are. But it is strange they should suppose that ministers are bound to be any more holy than other people. They would be shocked to see a minister showing levity, or running after the fashions, or getting out of temper, or living in a fine house, or riding in a coach. O, that is dreadful! It does not look well in a minister. Indeed! For a minister’s wife to wear such a fine bonnet, or such a silk shawl. O, no. But they think nothing of all this in a layman, or a layman’s wife. That is no offence at all. I am not saying that these things do look well in a minister; I know they do not. But they look in God’s eyes, just as well in a minister as they do in a layman. You have no more right to indulge in vanity and folly and pride than a minister. Can you go to heaven without being sanctified? Can you be holy without living for God, and doing all that you do to his glory? I have heard professedly good men speak against ministers’ having large salaries, and living in an expensive style, when they themselves were actually spending a great deal more money for the support of their families, than any ministers. What would be thought of a minister, living in the style in which many professors of religion, and elders of churches are living in this city. Why every body would say that they were hypocrites. But, it is just as much an evidence of hypocrisy in a layman to spend God’s money to gratify his lusts, or to please the world, or his family, as it is for a minister to do the same. It is distressing to hear some of our foremost laymen talk of its being dishonorable to religion, to give ministers a large salary, and let them live in an expensive style, when it is a fact that their own expenses, are, for the number of their families and the company they have, far above that of almost any minister. All this arises out of fundamentally wrong notions imbibed while they were young converts. Young converts have been taught to expect that ministers will have all the religion, especially all the self-denial, and so long as this continues there can be no hope that the church will ever do much for the glory of God, or for the conversion of the world. There is nothing of all this in the Bible. Where has God said, “You, ministers, love God with all your heart and soul and mind, and strength,” or “You ministers do all that you do to the glory of God?” This is said to all alike, and he who attempts to excuse himself from any duty or self-denial, from any watchfulness or sobriety, by putting it off upon ministers, or who ventures to adopt a lower scale of holy living for himself than he thinks is proper for a minister, is in great danger of proving himself a hypocrite, and paying the forfeit of his foolishness in hell.

Much depends on the instructions given to young converts. If they once get into the habit of supposing that they may indulge in things which they would condemn in a minister, it is ten to one if they will ever get out of it.

8. They should aim at being perfect. Every young convert should be taught, that if it is not his purpose to live without sin, he has not yet began to be religious. What is religion, but a supreme purpose of heart or disposition to obey God? If there is not this, there is no religion at all. It is one thing to profess to be perfect, and another thing to profess and feel that you ought to be perfect. It is one thing to say, that men ought to be perfect, and can be if they are so disposed, and another thing to say that they are perfect. If any are prepared to say that they are perfect, all I have to say is, Let them prove it. If they are so, I hope they will show it by their actions, otherwise we can never believe they are perfect.

But it is the duty of all to aim at being perfect. It should be their constant purpose, to live wholly to God, and obey all his commandments. They should live so, that if they should sin it would be an inconsistency, an exception, an individual case, in which they act contrary to the fixed and general purpose and tenor of their lives. They ought not to sin at all, they are bound to be as holy as God is, and young converts should be taught to set out in the right course, or they will never be right.

9. They should be taught to exhibit their light.

If the young convert does not exhibit his light, and hold it up to the world, it will go out. If he does not bestir himself, and go forth and try to enlighten those around him, his light will go out, and his own soul will soon be in darkness. Sometimes young converts seem disposed to be still and not do any thing in public till they get a great deal of light, or a great deal of religion. But this is not the way. Let the convert use what he has. let him hold up his little twinkling rush-light, boldly and honestly, and then God will pour in the oil and make him like a blazing torch. But God will not take the trouble to keep a light burning that is hid. Why should he? Where is the use?

This is the reason why so many people enjoy so little in religion. They do not exert themselves to honor God. They keep what little they do enjoy, so entirely to themselves, that there is no good reason why God should bestow blessings and benefits on them.

(more…)

Charles Finney: ETERNAL SECURITY is a TICKET TO HELL — “If a person gets the idea that because he is converted therefore he will assuredly go to heaven, that man will almost assuredly go to hell”

Excerpt from:

Charles Finney (1835): Instruction of Young Converts — “AIM AT BEING PERFECT. It should be their constant purpose to live wholly to God…. IF THEY SHOULD SIN it would be an inconsistency…. THEY OUGHT NOT TO SIN AT ALL; they are bound to be as holy as God is. And young converts should be taught to set out in the right course OR THEY WILL NEVER BE RIGHT”

* * *

Young converts should be taught so as to understand what perseverance is. It is astonishing how people talk about perseverance. As if the doctrine of perseverance was Once in grace, always in grace,” or, “Once converted, sure to go to heaven.” This is not the idea of perseverance.

The true idea is, that if a man is truly converted, he will continue to obey God. And as a consequence, he will surely go to heaven.

But if a person gets the idea, that because he is converted, therefore he will assuredly go to heaven, that man will almost assuredly go to hell.

Related:

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT

Kevin Conner on the Believer’s CONDITIONAL Security: “OBEDIENCE IS the very law of SECURITY for all created beings. There can be NO SUCH THING as UNCONDITIONAL security.”

A.W. Tozer: There is ‘one sure way to escape the delusions of religion’ and be true Christians: “Receive Christ as Lord of our lives and begin to obey Him in everything. Submit to the truth and let it search us. Submit and obey…”

Charles Finney (via Steve Hill): Aim to Be Perfect — “What is Christianity, but supreme love to God and a supreme purpose of heart or disposition to obey God? If there is not this, there is NO CHRISTIANITY AT ALL.”

[Lust “the poison that kills the soul” FREEDOM] My experience: How DEMONS DRIVE heterosexual and homosexual lust in ‘Christians’ — The bad news is that demons drive lust. The good news is that demons drive lust, because freedom lies straight ahead!

September 10, 2014

(video) “Zionism and Christianity: Unholy Alliance” – real-history, full-length film by Ted Pike — “They [pastors] were supposed to be WATCHMEN on the wall, yet they failed to utter even a hint of warning”

NOTE: FOX News’ owner, Rupert Murdoch is also Jewish.

– –

“They were supposed to be WATCHMEN on the wall,
yet they failed to utter even a hint of warning.
Such a leader was Billy Graham. …”

* * *

“Zionism and Christianity: Unholy Alliance” full-length film by Ted Pike

Ted Pike

Ted Pike

Published on Jul 21, 2013

Documentary by Rev. Ted Pike
Copyright 2003
Truthtellers.org

Related:

Ted Pike: The Jewish Kabbalah – Root of Mideast Violence — Kabbalah’s description of Gentiles as ANIMALS who must be slaughtered before “ORDER” can be restored helps explain not only Israel’s notorious MISTREATMENT of her Arab neighbors but also JEWISH POWER worldwide in *government*, *finance*, and *media*!

(audio) Ted Pike Discusses “Pedophilia: The Talmud’s Dirty Secret” — Balanced, LOVING presentation how Talmudic Jewish thought, the LEAVEN Jesus warned about, is hijacking Christian thought through Hollywood and the MSM

(video) Freud, Zionism and Sexual Revolution: Resentment against Christ and Gentiles is a motivating factor in promoting sexual degeneration and pornography

Does Talmud Teach Pedophilia, Incest, Bestiality?

(History Channel Video) Talmudic Jews’ plan to launch the Antichrist from rebuilt temple in Jerusalem – ‘Brad Meltzer’s Decoded’ “Spear of Destiny”

(video) Prof. Tony Martin: Jewish Role in the African Slave Trade — Hamitic myth/’curse of Ham’ originated in the Jewish Talmud, not the Bible!

(video) How The Jews Mock Jesus Christ — Seinfeld, Sarah Silverman, Israeli TV…

Poll: American Jews Rate Evangelicals as Low as Muslims

“WE WILL KILL JESUS; THEN WE WILL RULE THE WORLD” — “The Pharisees have had the SAME GOAL before Jesus was crucified on the cross, and they are still trying to accomplish this task with a New World Order!”

(video – Israel’s Real History) Miko Peled: The General’s Son & Return of the General’s Son — Israel’s war crimes & dehumanization must stop. There is a better solution.

(video) Miko Peled: Israeli General’s Son – Geneva 5/14/14 — “Israeli historians have been validating what Palestinians have said all along. It was not the Palestinians that began an assault. The Zionist militia began a massive campaign against an unarmed civilian population that lasted for twelve months with the CLEAR INTENTION of completing the ETHNIC CLEANSING of Palestine.”

(video) “Life In Occupied Palestine,” Anna Baltzer: A wonderfully moving introduction to the plight of the Palestinians, in simple, everyday terms — Checkpoints, settlements, Israeli activism, 1948 War refugees, censorship, the Wall, ongoing annexation of Palestinian land — “It is five times more likely for an ISRAELI SOLDIER to commit SUICIDE than to be killed in a terrorist attack. So when people talk about this occupation as helping the Jewish people, they don’t realize how many Israelis are actually against it, and how IMPORTANT it is FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE AS WELL AS the PALESTINIAN people to end this”

(video) Israeli settlers uproot Palestinians’ OLIVE TREES in occupied West Bank — 8,000 trees, some HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD!

(video) Alison Weir: History of the Israeli Palestinian Conflict — “Come to Palestine, Americans, and see your tax dollars at work, millions and millions of them, every day, and weep with me for our victims…”

(video) Miko Peled: Myths of 1967 (Israel’s Six Day War)

(video) The Dirty Truth About Israel — Real history that mainstream & ‘Christian’ media won’t tell US

CLAIM: “There has never been an actual country called Palestine” | FACT: The Arab state, which included Christians, was betrayed by Britain and hijacked by the Jewish Nakba

(video) Israeli School Books’ Racist Representation of Palestinians: Israeli General’s Daughter, Nurit Peled-Elhanan — Priming Israeli children for military service

(video) ISRAELIS CHEER AS CIVILIANS ARE MURDERED IN GAZA

(video) Inside Israel’s Pro-War Nationalist Camp — WE’RE HUMANS; THEY’RE ANIMALS” — Israeli soldier • “The most moral thing to do is to FLATTEN GAZA into a parking lot” — fmr. ISRAELI *PARLIAMENT* MEMBER • “A Jew is a soul; an Arab is a…”

Israelis Who Cheered On Missile Strikes Threatened to Destroy CNN Reporter’s Car

(video) Jews’ Racial Hate Rally: “A JEW IS a darling. AN ARAB IS a son of a b—” “May the Israel army win and f— up the Arabs. … Death to the Arabs!”

Bombing Gaza Like ‘Mowing the Lawn': Israeli hardliners JOKE about the periodic need to decimate each new generation of Palestinians

Jews for Justice: The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict — The root cause is clear. During the 1948 war, 750,000 Palestinians fled in terror or were actively expelled from their ancestral homeland and turned into refugees. The state of Israel then refused to allow them to return and either destroyed their villages entirely or expropriated their land, orchards, houses, businesses and personal possessions for the use of the Jewish population. This was the birth of the state of Israel.

Israeli General’s Daughter: How Israeli School Textbooks Teach Kids to Hate

(video) ABC Manipulates Truth to Fit Pro-Israel Bias | Weapons of Mass Distraction

(video!) Dead Palestinians Don’t Matter to Mainstream Media

(video) Israel Targeting Civilian with Banned Weapons

Sarah Palin demonstrates why most evangelicals dissed Ron Paul, who wanted to bring the troops home. ‘Christians’ have two sets of books: one for US and one for THEM (“who don’t deserve rights”). THEY’re not our ‘neighbor’ whom Jesus commanded US to love as much as ourselves. Maybe that’s why most evangelicals refuse to investigate 9/11. If ‘THEY’ didn’t take down the towers…???

(video) 5 Reasons Why Israel is an Apartheid State

Wonderful Israelis Soldiers refuse to serve in Gaza! — “We will not bomb children”

Henry Makow (an ethnic Jew): “I think the Jewish people have been hoodwinked, just like we’re all being hoodwinked. … Christians are being hoodwinked into pushing the Zionist line, which is really part of the New World Order. … History is being manipulated in order to grind us down and eventually enslave us”

Father, forgive me, I will not fight for your Israel—Omer Goldman, daughter of a former Mossad chief, tells why she prefers jail to the military draft

Pentecostals in Palestine – 6 minute trailer

Greg Boyd: In the kingdom of God, we are not allowed to have any enemies. All body-bags are equally tragic.

Jesus: “HOW DARE YOU PROMOTE MASS MURDER IN MY NAME!!!” — WWJB?

[5-minute video] “Israel started this not Hamas” — Actually both sides are responsible, which the MSM carefully covers up

[music video] Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) ‘Song for Gaza’: We shall overcome — End the blockade of Gaza — WWJD?!!

(video) Ray McGovern: Israel/Washington Dehumanize Palestinians — Like blades of grass that have to be mowed periodically — Israeli Children’s textbooks don’t even show pictures of Palestinians

Red Cross on the Gaza blockade: Israel is in clear violation of international humanitarian law | What Would Jesus Do?

Israel admits it will again annihalate civilians, using “disproportional force” if… (with U.S. weaponry, of course)

Israel has so far missed “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” | But so has the US. We give them the weapons, finance their atrocities, and silence our own press. And we lead by example: our regime-change, reverse-Christian wars and numerous covert actions (including assassinations and even torture!). What would Jesus Do? What would “pro-Israel” mean to Jesus? What does Jesus think of evangelicals’ support-Israel-no-matter-what cheer that may soon bring about WWIII, the destruction of America and the one-world antichrist government! Is this being pro-life?

Israel’s & U.S.’ Attrocities: May We No Longer Be Silent

Israel’s Deputy PM admits Iran DIDN’T threaten to wipe Israel out

The Attack on the USS Liberty — Purpose: (1) to hide Israel’s illegal actions in the 6-Day War and (2) to bring America into the war by blaming Egypt for sinking the Liberty

‘The USS Liberty’: America’s Most Shameful Secret — Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the White House

Dead In The Water – The Sinking of the USS Liberty — Israel murders Americans & LBJ/McNamara cover-up!

Israel, the highest rate of prostitution in the world (CNN) | One million visits made by clients every month to brothels in Israel (population 7 million) | “For this we yearned?”

Articles About Human Trafficking in Israel

Sex and Lies in Israel: What would be the media response if the Pope issued an edict saying Catholic girls should sexually seduce enemies of the Church? Certainly such would be on the front pages of every newspaper in Europe and America, but when Jewish religious authorities make such a pronouncement, there is no media coverage at all.

(video) The Shocking Jewish Role in Slavery, I & II: What Jewish Historians Say | The Media Coverup — Unlike Hollywood’s portrayals, slave shipping was mainly a Jewish enterprise, and Jews were 2000% more likely to own slaves than whites!

[Very HEAVY!] Who is Rupert Murdoch? Could people be this evil? — The EVANGELICALS are the “fertile ground” for his message of hate and deceit — LIE to the people, give them ENEMIES to hate, arrange WARS for them to fight and stand back and watch them destroy themselves.

Former Israeli Soldier Reveals Murder Squads

Is it illegal for Christians to evangelize in Israel? — Billy Graham has held rallies in over 185 different countries, including Communist, but has never been allowed to hold a Christian evangelistic rally in Israel

Alex Jones on Israel’s attrocities: Because Israel has been given so much unconditional support Israel does what it wants whenever it wants. Governments are corrupt…

Israel Bombs Medical Supply Building — Ken O’Keefe in Gaza, Feb. 8, 2011

Specifics in how the media sides with Israel against the peace activists

Calling People ‘Anti-Semitic’ is a ‘Trick’ We Always Use to Discredit Critics, says Former Israeli Minister

US Media’s “Israel Can Do No Wrong” Bias

[media bias exposed!] Glenn Greenwald Destroys MSNBC’s Defense of Israeli Attack

CNN, “The Most Trusted Parrot in News”: How they treat Iran verses how they treat Israel

Zionist Lobby Paid Off U.S. Journalists To Sell Israeli Foreign Policy

Secret jail torturer becomes police chief in Israel

Secret but not forgotten: Israel’s facility 139 — Where Palestinian, Lebanese, and other Arab prisoners are detained and subjected to torture

Kucinich: WE ACCEPT the Slaughter of the Innocent BECAUSE WE’VE ALREADY Slaughtered the Innocent

Kucinich: “U.S. Weapons Being Illegally Used to Kill Children”

Kucinich: UN should investigate Israeli Gaza strikes — “this…is disproportionate indiscriminate mass violence”

One-third of Gaza dead, injured are children

Ron Paul: The Invasion of Gaza and its Implications for America — Blowback!

One Very Brave Palestinian Woman

Devvy Kidd: Bomb Iran now because…uh, what’s the reason? — Puppets of the new world order elites automatically smear anyone who questions our foreign policy with regards to Israel as “anti-Semitic.” Of course, most people don’t even know what that label means other than it’s the kiss of death for politicians and journalists who are trying to be rational and fair in making an informed decision.

How Come Israelis Can Criticize Israel, But Americans Can’t?

Charles Lindbergh’s – September 11, 1941 Des Moines Speech. Provocateuring for war then just as now — “They planned to create a series of incidents which would force us into the actual conflict.” “I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders…”

Netanyahu admits on video he deceived US to destroy Oslo accord

Dr. Stan: Is War With Iran A Set-up? Lies that led US into all of the wars in the last 120 years! “It’s really all about bringing about the one-world government.”

Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney sets the record straight on Israel’s aid flotilla massacre

Inhumane Israelis CELEBRATE attack on Turkish Aid Ship – in front of Turkish Embassy,Tel Aviv

[Illustration] USA and Israel totally ignore: “Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord.” Who are we listening to instead?

Protesters assaulted and spit on by “Christians United for Israel” Summit Attendees

Hagee: “Unrepentant Heretic” — The church is embarrassed to name Christ to those He first came to redeem — the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It disobeys Christ’s great commission to spread the gospel to the whole world, starting with Jerusalem.

Pat Robertson Advocates Israel Bombing Iran Before 2008 Election

Pastor Baldwin: Ron Paul’s Israel Problem [Evangelicals Led Astray?]

Ron Paul’s Biggest Eye-Opener: ‘Christian’ Evangelicals Pushing Preemptive War in the Name of Spreading Christian ‘Love’

When Billy Graham laughed to minimize Bill Clinton’s adultery

Billy Graham (a Freemason?) Praises the DeMolays – Masonic Youth Group

Walter Veith: Hidden Agendas — The deity worshiped in the shrines of secrecy is not the Deity of the Bible. “There are very, very, very few Rabbis in the world today that are not Kabbalists.”

Conditional Salvation & Conditional Occupation of Israel Verses – Ted Pike

Filed under: Doctrines Demystified,Israel,Ted Pike,Who Goes to Heaven — Jeff Fenske @ 3:46 pm

Apparently, these two issues are related. Because if born-again ‘Christians’ believe obedience isn’t required for them to go to heaven then it’s more likely they’ll also believe obedience is not required for the Jews to occupy Israel.

I prove that Christians must overcome sin by by God’s grace here:

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT”

– –

From: truthtellers.org…

National Prayer Network

CONDITIONAL SALVATION & CONDITIONAL OCCUPATION VERSES

Note: None of these lists are meant to be exhaustive.

  • Conditional Occupation of Israel Verses
  • Conditional Salvation Verses, General
  • Conditional Salvation Verses Specific to Post-Calvary Christians
  • Conditional Salvation Verses Specific to the Nation of Israel
  • Conditional Salvation Verses Specific to the Concept of Living without Sin

 

Conditional Occupation of Israel Verses

Lev. 18:28 – “…that the land spue not you out also when you defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.”

Lev. 20:22-23 – “You will therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.”

Lev.26:27-46 (43) – “The land also will be left of them, and will enjoy her Sabbaths, while she lies desolate without them: and they will accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.”

Deut. 4:25-31 – “…and will do evil in the sight of the Lord your God, to provoke Him to anger: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto you go over Jordan to possess it; you will not prolong your days upon it, but will utterly be destroyed. And the Lord will scatter you among the nations…”

Deut. 11:18-21 – “Therefore you will lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul,… that your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers to give them, as the days of the heaven upon the earth.”

Deut. 28:63-64 – “…that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nothing; and you will be plucked from off the land whither you go to possess it. And the Lord will scatter you among the people,…”

Deut. 29:24-29 (28) – “…and the Lord rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.”

Deut. 30:15-20 (17-18) – “But if your heart turn away – I denounce unto you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not prolong your days upon the land, whither you passed over the Jordan to go to possess it.”

1 Kings 9:6-9 (6-7) – “But if you will at all turn from following me, you or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I gave them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, and I will cast out of my sight…”

2 Kings 21:8 – “Neither will I make the feet of Israel move out of the land which I gave to their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.”

2 Chron. 7:19-22 – “But if you turn away – then will I pluck them up by the roots out of the land which I have given them…”

Jer. 7:5-7 – “If you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor; if you oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt: then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave your fathers, for ever and ever.”

Jer. 16:10-13 – “…Because your fathers have forsaken me, – and you have done worse than your fathers, – therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that you know not, neither you nor your fathers; and there will you serve other gods day and night; where I will not show you favor.”

(more…)

September 1, 2014

Can a person influenced by antidepressants commit suicide and go to heaven?

Filed under: Demons in Christians?,Doctrines Demystified,Who Goes to Heaven — Jeff Fenske @ 10:01 am

I was asked this question in this comment:

If a person under the influence of a drug that causes depression or suicidal thoughts commits suicide not knowing that the drug brought about the influence of committing suicide. Would he or she still go to hell? I’m talking about a medicated prescription drug given to a patient from the doctor to help a patient with an illness. But has side effects that caused suicide. Please reply from a biblical perspective.

My response:

First, a DISCLAIMER, I’m not a professional counselor. This is my opinion. I don’t claim to have all the answers, especially in regards to what these drugs do. And I’ve heard it’s really dangerous to go off of psych drugs all at once. I’m NOT recommending that at all. I don’t have a lot of faith in psych doctors, but there are good ones out there whose advice with the drugs should be followed.

I’m sorry for taking so long to respond. I’ve been thinking a lot about what to say. This is so heavy, and it’s hard to answer this briefly and still adequately. I’m sorry for whatever your situation, or your friend’s situation is, if it’s current. I hope for freedom to replace darkness.

If it’s regarding someone who did commit suicide, that’s why I’ve been dragging my feet, and this is what I’ll mainly address, which should cover both possibilities.

What I will say is different than what most pastors currently preach. False, salvation doctrine has been and is the main problem, and because most pastors haven’t taught the truth, most don’t even know they really do have to overcome by Jesus’ grace, which works so powerfully in us if we cooperate.

I’d like to stand up for God.  Many are sinning against God, questioning anything in His word they don’t like, and teaching a different gospel, which they’re actually just making up out of wishful thinking, assisted by demons, who jump right in if we open the door through rebellion. And the result is doctrines of demons. I think these people likely have a root of bitterness, like the writer to Hebrews said in chapter 12, which is defiling many. This is a demonic stronghold that will cause them to lose their salvation if they don’t get free.

The problem isn’t Jesus making the way too narrow. The problem is sinful man ignoring for centuries what the Bible clearly says about who goes to heaven. Like Luther, for example, who took one scripture (Rm. 1:17) out of context and made an entire doctrine out of it, ignoring what Paul clearly then stated and concluded with afterwards, which agrees with what Jesus and the other Bible teachers also said. Many then became Lutherans without becoming real Christians, followers of Christ. I was one until I read the New Testament for myself.

Imagine if pastors had been preaching all along the truth about who goes to heaven. Then we would know that we have to overcome sin by Jesus’ grace. Fewer would dare cross the line to step out of safety and into willful sin. And we’d be filled with the Holy Spirit for all the world to see (John 17). We’d be happy. We wouldn’t be depressed. We could pray for one another and be healed, because we confessed our sins to one another according to James 5:14-16:

Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your offenses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The insistent prayer of a righteous person is powerfully effective.

It’s important to have righteous elders too, which today is hardly at all the case. An overseer “must be blameless,” Paul said.

Again, there is this group of guys and a few ladies who are questioning the word of God, largely based upon their bad experience at a church we all attended. Horrible things happened because the main leader wouldn’t get right with those he hurt, so the Holy Spirit could flew the coop, and hasn’t significantly returned since.

So this anti-church group (on Facebook) is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, thinking that even during the best of times (when we were feeling the Holy Spirit’s anointing) there were significant problems. So they’re concluding that church meetings can never work, because they never fully did before in our church, in reality. Jesus addressed this in Rev. 3:1-5. Sardis had a “reputation of being alive” too, but they were “dead,” Jesus said, because “I have found no works of yours perfected before…God.”

1 “And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected beforeGod. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So the solution to sub-biblical and partially phony churchianity is to keep what was working and correct what was not. Keep the baby and only throw out the bathwater so we can all be clean, abiding in Christ together, where fruit remains and Jesus’ joy in us is the norm.

On this site, I also have Paul’s Ephesians 4:11-16 standard in my header at the top of the page. The 5-fold ministers listed there are supposed to lead us into “perfection,” which Paul then describes. This used to be the standard of our church, and really is supposed to be our actual goal. Instead, most church leaders are completely ignoring God’s goals, and really are just playing church, acting like everything is okay, when it’s clearly not — which is more like Dr. Phil than Jesus or Paul.

But that doesn’t mean we can’t live holy lives while the churches are falling way short. We must. No excuses. And this should compel us to help the church be whole, the way it’s supposed to be: being ‘ONE’ with each other in Christ, “that the world will know (John 17) — having God’s goals set before us. And to not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit, on our own if needs be. Even if it’s a struggle at times, and is a far lesser experience without the body being jointly knitted together under Christ.

It’s also good to know that we’re promised we’ll never be tempted above what we’re able to bear, because the Holy Spirit will always enable us to overcome, even torture:

CORRIE TEN BOOM: PREPARED For The COMING TRIBULATION — “Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be STRONG ENOUGH TO BE A MARTYR for Jesus Christ.” My father said, “OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN KNOWS when you will need the strength…. HE WILL SUPPLY ALL YOU NEED – JUST IN TIME.“

I put a lot of blame on the pastors, and rightly so, but in general, the people have not been responsible to make sure that what they’ve been taught is the truth too. This factor does seem to be in effect:

For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables. (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

Yikes! Too many are falling off the wagon of truth into willful disobedience, where there is no peace and fulfilling love.

It seems that not enough people are like the Bereans, whom Paul said were more noble, because they not only eagerly received what Paul said, but they checked in the scriptures daily to make sure what he told them was true.

Relating this to psych drugs and suicide, if the person who committed suicide while on them wasn’t a going-to-heaven Christian before taking the drug, according to what the Bible really says, and then just goes into further sin after taking the antidepressant there really is no hope, I’m sorry to say.

If you’re wondering what is required to be in Christ to go to heaven, please read enough of this article, which I wrote, to get enough of an understanding, starting with my dream, which I share on the first page. I was in danger of going to hell, which prompted this study.

At the very least, to be in the possibility of going to heaven given your stated scenario, the person has to be going to heaven, abiding in Christ before they take the drug. And then if they get self-destructive while taking it, that’s another issue. My article:

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT”

So if a person really was abiding in Christ, overcoming sin to the biblically required degree, and then takes a drug that somehow opens the door to suicidal thoughts to the point they actually do it, is he/she responsible in that drugged condition?

I’ve personally never taken any of these drugs, but have heard that they can actually dull one’s conscience, which would make it easier to sin without feeling guilty. It seems likely that people who take antidepressants may sin more readily in this state. Here are my key articles on this subject:

Skousen: Anti-Depressants Suppress the Conscience Part of the Brain

[FASCINATING audio] Dr. Ann Blake Tracy with John B. Wells on ‘Coast to Coast AM’ 1/19/13: ANTIDEPRESSANTS & VIOLENCE — The “HITLER SYNDROME” (overconfidence in ones own policies or decisions, no fear of consequences, criminal behavior, death of people close to the abuser as the preferred method of solving problems in the abusers life, coldness and lack of humanity). Antidepressants cause distorted thinking, abnormal behavior, and LOSS OF MORALITY to spread like a contagion.

Dr. Scott Johnson: Pharmakeia — Sorcery, Pharmaceuticals & the Roots of Modern Day Drug Industry. “You cannot drug your body into good health.” “Drugs are not going to take the demons away.” “They’ve swept the symptoms under the rug for so long that now they’re a surgical candidate.”

Do anti depressants dull feelings so you are unable to cry anymore or feel much at all? — various opinions …

A warning to all psychiatric drug users — Antipsychotic drugs disturb frontal lobe activity – causing a chemical lobotomy – making emotionally distressed people more submissive and less able to feel!

When we willfully sin and don’t repent, which may mean getting right with those we’ve hurt if we did hurt someone in some way, the guilt would normally remain until we repent. And in this state we’re in trouble with God until we repent. Many take psych drugs, instead, which may help alleviate the feeling of guilt, but the guilt remains. That’s my theory, based upon what I’ve seen so far, which may be true in many cases. But I will present another scenario soon.

Thus, psych drugs are extremely spiritually dangerous. And since it’s probably easier to sin while on meds — and the more one sins the more guilt will accumulate, and the more that demons will have a right to drive sin, because we gave the demons a right. We willfully sinned and let them in.

So not only can guilt accumulate as a result of additional sin while on the drugs, but demons can accumulate.

[DANGER] Apparently, the worst thing is to go off antidepressants cold turkey, all at once, opening the door wide open to all of those real feelings all at once. From what I’ve heard, that’s when many commit suicide.

I’ll share here a story about A WOMAN WHO COMMITTED SUICIDE AFTER TAKING PSYCH DRUGS, AND WHO MAY BE IN HEAVEN. I really don’t know for sure at all. Her husband believes she is in heaven. I hope he’s right, but have no way of knowing for sure.

Her name is Alynn Pike, who was married to Ted Pike. I am a HUGE fan of them both. My heart just breaks, thinking about what happened. And I wish so much that I would have known about them and this sooner, so I could have prayed for those who were James-3 cursing them both, which had a huge effect on Alynn. This is what I believe happened. From my (prophesy) A Gift that Will Set Many Free! (A Death Warrant is Out for Your Souls) — “I’ve given you the gift of tongues from My heart to you”

I want you to be free, free from anxiety. A death warrant is out for your souls. It will get you if you let it. You must pray.

Many die from unknown causes. They are weak from attacks from the Devil who never gives up—curse after curse—toward My people. Many have given in, unable to walk.

The prophesy then goes on to tell how we should pray in tongues for the people cursing us, and forgive them too. God knows what exactly to pray, but we must pray it through in the prayer language God gives us.

I included many linked articles in this post, in case you want further advice on this subject, which is too little known.

Ted said Alynn was speaking in tongues. Apparently, he thought it was from the demons, and maybe it was. But I’m thinking the Holy Spirit was trying to help her pray to be free, and they didn’t realize, because it sounds like they weren’t charismatic.

Ted and Alynn were both fighting the powerful ADL Jewish group, in trying to keep their hate bill from being passed. But they were also both exposing the evils of Talmud-based Judaism, which the Pharisees of Jesus’ day also based their beliefs on, along with the Kabbalah. Jesus said they followed their father, the Devil. But most evangelical pastors today act almost as if the Jews are already going-to-heaven Christians. It’s a lot worse than most realize. Nothing significant has changed since Jesus walked the earth, so when Ted points out the serious problems, not only do many Jews get mad, but many evangelicals get furious too.

And because Alynn spoke on the videos along with Ted, she was right out there in public where many probably tried to curse her to death — no exaggeration. The hate and anger is ferocious!!

I started realizing how James-3 curses worked in the early ’80s, because I got really sick and had to figure out what was going on, or else. I never was suicidal, for the record. Since then, I have prayed in tongues many thousands of hours, and have learned so much, in part from words of knowledge while praying too. God often tells me the names of people to pray for, for example.

Praying in tongues is a greatly underrated gift. Paul, no doubt, was a target of the enemy, and he said he prayed in tongues more than anyone (1 Cor. 14). Jude says:

“But you, beloved, keep building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in the love of God….”

This is Ted’s story of what happened to Alynn. I really feel for him, because they were obviously a match made in heaven, so right for and in love with each other, and effective. So they were a big target.

Ted writes: TED PIKE: MY WIFE DIED A MARTYR FOR GOD AND FREEDOM

And in this video, Ted explains what happened to the best of his awareness. I don’t agree with everything the host says, who is into the new age, but he is wonderful. He really cares and is pretty balanced. This is so heavy.

If anyone doesn’t believe Christians can have demons, I prove they can here: Can a Christian Have a Demon? Absolutely! Most Have Many!

Ted tells their story — very heavy!:

Demonic Attacks Against Ted & Allyn Pike

Alynn was on medication, which Ted talks about; though, maybe not all the time. The demons were the biggest factor, which they weren’t able to overcome with what they knew and did.

It’s so sad.

It does seem obvious that Alynn was dedicated to serving God no matter what before this happened, and even throughout it. They got overwhelmed by the endless attacks, which occurred for six years.

And Ted, instead of pulling out of the public fight, so they could recuperate and regroup, it sounded like he decided to press on no matter what, and Alynn was willing to also. I admire their tenacity, but yeeeeeks! And in some of their later videos, Alynn does appear to not being relaxed and composed like she had been before, showing some strain in her face.

This just really bothers me to see this happen to these two WONDERFUL people.

[Personally — I’m not Ted or Alynn, and wasn’t there, and I’ve never been married — but I can’t see moving forward publicly with my wife going through extreme, daily demonic attacks which she couldn’t get free from. I admire them both greatly, and I really do hope to see them both in heaven, someday, but there is no way to no for sure where Alynn is, from what I can tell. Maybe Ted does know for sure. I hope so, Ted, in case you ever read this. Ughhh! And Ted, thanks for all you’ve done (with Alynn and without) and are doing. I’m learning so much. And I wish I would have learned from you earlier. It was sad that Alex Jones was overly cautious, and didn’t have you on more — giving you more freedom to talk about what really is going on. I’m praying for you now.]

Ted decided to share the full story to help people see the seriousness of the fight we’re in with real, evil forces, among other reasons. And I’m able to share this here, which maybe will help some.

There was no reason why they should have had to fight this on their own. The body of Christ should be united and strong in Christ, filled with His Spirit, so we can overcome no matter what.

I got this prophecy in 2008. We really need to push for ‘ONE’ happening, where we can safely be in Christ, together, so whatever comes at us in the future can be overcome by Jesus’ grace. We need to be holy in Him, and prayed up, united in prayer and dedication to doing the greatest two commandments — none of this pro-war, hate stuff anymore. The Arabs aren’t the enemy. Demons are, though. And Jews aren’t, either; though, I’ve been learning a lot about their Talmud driven, evil ways, lately. It’s shocking what we haven’t been told on purpose. But they’re victims too in this goodfight. And we don’t want to be aiding and abetting evil. And it looks like the USA is being set up to be attacked by Russia and China, perhaps just 5 years away, if China waits until their navy is ready. We need to get this going:

‘Let Us Be ONE’ Prophecy Continues 10/8/08: “It’s TOO LATE to REVERSE what’s been done for MY MEN have been REJECTED … Now is the Time to OVERCOME and GET RIGHT With ALL … FREEeeeeeeeeeeeee———DOM at last … Your HEART will SWELL with LOVE and it will be EASY to REMAIN In Me when others are On The BOAT With You”

We really need to get our act together now, so we have No Condemnation now so No Condemnation when we meet Jesus face to Face — Hearts pure, smiling so big!!! FREEeeeeeeee———–DOM!!!!!!!

This site has many solutions. Reconciliation with others whom we’ve hurt is a major issue we need to overcome. And look at what can happen as a result:

(video) Asbury Revival, 1970: RECONCILIATION the KEY! — “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘I just hit my 34th person and I’m free!’”

The Welsh Revival of 1904-05 by J. Edwin Orr: A Countrywide Asbury-like REVIVAL! The 4 Points: #1 Confess any known sin, and put any wrong done to man right again. #2 Put away any doubtful habit. #3 Obey the Spirit promptly. #4 Confess your faith publicly.

Effects of the WELSH REVIVAL 1904-05: Whole communities were radically changed FROM DEPRAVITY TO GLORIOUS GOODNESS. The CRIME RATE dropped, often to nothing. THE POLICE had little more to do than supervise the coming and going of the people to the chapel prayer meetings. THE UNDERGROUND MINES echoed with the sounds of PRAYER and HYMNS, instead of nasty jokes and gossip. People who had fallen out BECAME FRIENDS AGAIN!!!!!!!

(video) The Azusa Street Revival (1906-15): The biggest move of miracles in the history of America — The fire of God’s glory on the roof! “Even the fingernails grew back!” In 1909, Seymour prophesied the next, even greater revival will come in about 100 years! We’re due!!!

The Achan Factor — Because of one man’s disobedience the entire nation of Israel had to deal with the “Achan factor” among them before they could come under the umbrella of Almighty God’s blessings once again! (True for Abbott Loop)

My 1990 Key-to-Revival Prophecy: “There is might and there is power and there is glory, but it is being withheld until these relationships are made right, until we love our brother enough to…” (True for Abbott Loop)

My Dream of ‘ONE’ Happening at Abbott Loop CC!

Awakening Meetings End at IHOP. Why?

Benny Hester: “When God Ran” — God will RUN when we come back to Him!

If we build it He will come:
“Let Us Be ONE” (A Revival Prophecy)

[photo] Abbott Loop Christian Center (Abbott Loop Community Church) — 1985

Let’s begin again, and do it right! Paul overcame, and so must we; otherwise, we’re in the dangerous zone, which we should do everything we have to in order to stay clear of.

Can ‘Christians’ use Paul’s “Forgetting the things which are behind…I press on” statement as an excuse to not get right with those they’ve hurt? Paul also said: “I also practice ALWAYS having a conscience void of offense toward God and men.” What if you don’t repent? And what will happen when you do? The Third Great Awakening can start with us!!! We can all be happy — ‘ONE’!

God bless a lot!!!!!!!

Jeff

If anyone would like to comment, I do not require any personal info, a name or an email address. You may be totally anonymous if you desire.

Next Page »

The Rubric Theme. Blog at WordPress.com.

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 139 other followers

%d bloggers like this: