Everyone who is familiar with the Lord’s Prayer should know that forgiving others is a salvation issue, for Jesus expanded verse 12 in verses 14 and 15 (right after the ‘Amen’).

But many of us only memorized 9b-13. In effect, we were only taught soundbites. And that’s how the great deception has been pulled off. Many don’t even know that verses 14 and 15 exist!

We must be holy — experientially — not just ‘legally’ (a theological term that is currently being used to deceive many).

The Bible teaches: we are only legally, in-God’s-sight holy if we’re actually living holy — right with God and people — enabled and empowered, given GRACE by the Holy Spirit to do so.

According to the Bible, we must forgive. We have no excuses. Forgiving others is a big deal!

May we be ONE in Him!

powertothepeaceful

.

<< Matthew 6:9-15 >>
King James Bible

9 After this manner therefore pray ye:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
.

<< Matthew 6:9-15 >>
World English Bible

Pray like this:

‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.

Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

Give us today our daily bread.

Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.

Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.’

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don’t forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Okay, that’s pretty clear, right? But verses 14 and 15 weren’t included in what I had to memorize in the materials I was taught from in Lutheran school and in confirmation class. We were taught our sins are forgiven, period. And that’s what Luther taught in his Large Catechism.

This is how Martin Luther spins Jesus’ words to mean something He didn’t say.

From: Martin Luther’s Large Catechism, translated by Bente and Dau by Martin Luther, not copyrighted.

The Fifth Petition.

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

This part now relates to our poor miserable life, which, although we have and believe the Word of God, and do and submit to His will, and are supported by His gifts and blessings is nevertheless not without sin. For we still stumble daily and transgress because we live in the world among men who do us much harm and give us cause for impatience, anger, revenge [James-3 cursing? – ed.], etc. Besides, we have Satan at our back, who sets upon us on every side, and fights (as we have heard) against all the foregoing petitions, so that it is not possible always to stand firm in such a persistent conflict.

Martin Luther believed that we could not overcome serious sins like persistent anger and revenge [Luther actually stated that he intentionally cursed people daily], though the Bible in many places teaches that we must overcome [see: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way]. The Holy Spirit enables and empowers us, gives us the grace to overcome temptations, to the degree that Paul taught: “No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1 Cor. 10:13)

Now Luther goes into his once-saved-always-saved theme. He taught that we are forgiven no matter what we do, no matter how many and serious are our sins. So he concludes that Jesus didn’t really mean what He clearly said. Jesus’ admonition to forgive others is merely to help us know inside what is true in reality, that we are already forgiven—because we can never be unforgiven.

To Luther, we don’t have to forgive others in order to be forgiven (Jesus made sure we understood  this is what He meant in verse 12 by his emphatic statements in verses 14 and 15), we forgive others only so we can “obtain consolation to comfort the conscience.”

Therefore there is here again great need to call upon God and to pray: Dear Father, forgive us our trespasses. Not as though He did not forgive sin without and even before our prayer (for He has given us the Gospel, in which is pure forgiveness before we prayed or ever thought about it). But this is to the intent that we may recognize and accept such forgiveness. For since the flesh in which we daily live is of such a nature that it neither trusts nor believes God, and is ever active in evil lusts and devices, so that we sin daily in word and deed, by commission and omission by which the conscience is thrown into unrest, so that it is afraid of the wrath and displeasure of God, and thus loses the comfort and confidence derived from the Gospel; therefore it is ceaselessly necessary that we run hither and obtain consolation to comfort the conscience again.

So, according to Luther, if we willfully sin sins that lead to death, and feel guilty as a result, so that we lose our comfort and confidence before God, even being afraid of the wrath and displeasure of God, this is only an illusion. This fear is unwarranted (even though Hebrews 10:26-39 and many other scriptures say the opposite), and forgiving others helps us feel right with God again; even though, in reality we were right with Him all along.

Jesus said the opposite. We must forgive to be forgiven, and that’s why we feel right after doing so, because then we are right. Martin Luther was clearly a false teacher who was deceived, himself, and tragically, the false doctrines he taught are still widely accepted today!

But this should serve God’s purpose of breaking our pride and keeping us humble. For in case any one should boast of his godliness and despise others, God has reserved this prerogative to Himself, that the person is to consider himself and place this prayer before his eyes, and he will find that he is no better than others, and that in the presence of God all must lower their plumes, and be glad that they can attain forgiveness. And let no one think that as long as we live here he can reach such a position that he will not need such forgiveness. In short, if God does not forgive without ceasing, we are lost.

That’s precisely Jesus’ point. God does not forgive without ceasing, so many are indeed lost, having believed this lie.

We must obey — Jesus.

We don’t have to obey — Luther.

God’s forgiveness is conditional — Jesus.

“God forgives freely and without condition” — Luther (says below).

It is therefore the intent of this petition that God would not regard our sins and hold up to us what we daily deserve, but would deal graciously with us, and forgive, as He has promised, and thus grant us a joyful and confident conscience to stand before Him in prayer. For where the heart is not in right relation towards God, nor can take such confidence, it will nevermore venture to pray. But such a confident and joyful heart can spring from nothing else than the [certain] knowledge of the forgiveness of sin.

But there is here attached a necessary, yet consolatory addition: As we forgive. He has promised that we shall be sure that everything is forgiven and pardoned, yet in the manner that we also forgive our neighbor. For just as we daily sin much against God and yet He forgives everything through grace, so we, too, must ever forgive our neighbor who does us injury, violence, and wrong, shows malice toward us, etc. If, therefore you do not forgive, then do not think that God forgives you; but if you forgive, you have this consolation and assurance, that you are forgiven in heaven, not on account of your forgiving, — for God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace, because He has so promised, as the Gospel teaches, — but in order that He may set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer, Luke 6, 37: Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Therefore Christ also repeats it soon after the Lord’s Prayer, and says, Matt. 6,14: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, etc.

In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus clearly gives a condition to us in order for our sins to be forgiven: “as we forgive others who trespass against us.” “For if you don’t forgive….” But this didn’t fit into Luther’s forgiven-no-matter-what theology in which “God forgives freely and without condition.” So Luther concluded that James shouldn’t be scripture because it talks about the necessity of obedience, and Jesus can’t really mean what He is really saying — because it doesn’t fit into the once-infant-baptized-always-saved (OBAS?) formula. Luther turns Jesus’ crystal clear condition that Jesus emphasized after the ‘Amen’ into an unnecessary mental exercise, “a sign” that merely helps us appease our consciences.

We don’t really have to forgive because it’s all automatic, anyway. Though Jesus clearly said we need to. This is the deception.

OSAS, you all! Once-saved-always-saved — “the seal,” the “promise” — so nothing else matters — even if Jesus says it. We don’t have to be right with our neighbor. Jesus just said this so we would feel right.

Hogwash to the nth!!!

Jesus said it clearly here and elsewhere, as did Paul, John, and almost every book in the New Testament. We can’t keep willfully sinning sins that lead to death: lust, hatred (unforgiveness on steroids), lying, envy, etc. and be right enough with God and man in order to go to heaven. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God” — Paul in Romans 8:14. It’s not automatic. There are strings.

This sign is therefore attached to this petition, that, when we pray, we remember the promise and reflect thus: Dear Father, for this reason I come and pray Thee to forgive me, not that I can make satisfaction, or can merit anything by my works, but because Thou hast promised and attached the seal thereto that I should be as sure as though I had absolution pronounced by Thyself. For as much as Baptism and the Lord’s Supper appointed as external signs, effect, so much also this sign can effect to confirm our consciences and cause them to rejoice. And it is especially given for this purpose, that we might use and practice it every hour, as a thing that we have with us at all times.

Related:

How the previous post, “What the Lord’s Prayer really says about FORGIVING…,” came about

Martin Luther: Sin Boldly — “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day”

Luther: Let us BANISH the epistle of James, for it is ‘WORTHLESS’ — written by a non-Christian and can’t be reconciled with Paul

The Protestant Reformers Were Frauds: By their Fruits You Will Know Them — Martin Luther was a false teacher, a racist, a persecutor and a murderer! John Calvin was a false teacher, a deranged tyrant, a persecutor and a murderer!

Martin Luther Cursed from His Heart Catholic Leaders, ‘Every Day’

Martin Luther’s Subordinate Bible Books: Hebrews, James, Jude & Revelation

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? (Where Paul is reconciled with James — and with Hebrews and 1 John — and with Jesus. It all works!)

5 thoughts on “What the Lord’s Prayer really says about FORGIVING. Jesus made it clear right after “Amen”: “IF YOU DON’T forgive…” VS. Luther’s Catechism: “God forgives WITHOUT CONDITION,” forgiving even “REVENGE”!!!

  1. Re the part where you said, “Everyone who is familiar with the Lord’s Prayer should know that forgiving others is a salvation issue, for Jesus expanded verse 12 in verses 14 and 15 (right after the ‘Amen’).”

    You said it’s a salvation issue. Are you 100% sure about this? Take a hypothetical situation. Imagine a non-believer accepts Jesus into his heart and says that he/she forgives others. We’d agree that this person is saved yes? Even though this person is basically a baby new born christian. He says they they forgive others, but in reality, it may be they need to go through a process of growing into forgiving others. Now. lets imagine that this saved person finds themselves in a really bad spot 1 week later. Somebody breaks into their house and rapes his wife and murders their children. That person would probably be incapable of forgiveness at that moment. Or even days later. Most people would agree right? Ok, so now imagine that person gets run over by a car. Based on your comment, that person is not saved. Why? Because after his wife got raped and his kids murdered, he was full of hatred and unforgiveness. Oops.

    You see, in the day to day world when things are not so bad, it’s easy to talk about forgiveness etc etc in a way that makes it look black and white. In reality, life makes some things impossible.

    I think it would be fair to say that God fully understands the implications of what he did when he died on the cross. He dealt with sin. If we complicate this by saying that there are conditions by which you are not saved. Such us not forgiving somebody, then Jesus never dealt with sin once and for all. When Jesus taught his disciples how to pray, I hope I’m correct in thinking that it was in a Paternal context, not a salvation context. Forgiving others is essential and we were forgiven. But if that is a condition of salvation, then most of us are in trouble. And what Jesus did was only partial.

    People are saved in their last breath because they simply believed in Jesus Christ. And God’s grace allowed it. Perhaps there are implications for them (i wouldn’t know this) due to unforgiveness, but they are saved.

    Like

    1. Barry,

      Good question!

      One the one hand: Yes, I’m 100% sure . There are many conditions required for salvation. See: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? The fact that most pastors don’t teach the biblical conditions doesn’t make it not so. What matters is what Jesus and the other teachers in the New Testament say is so.

      On the other hand: I can unequivocally say that forgiving others is a salvation issue, but I didn’t say that unforgiveness will always disqualify a person from going to heaven. God decides where to draw the line; though, we have some clues as to where that line is.

      For example, you talk about a new believer who doesn’t yet understand how much he needs to forgive. This sin won’t be held against him unless he intentionally refuses to consider who he should forgive. See Hebrews 10:26-39 in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures. “He who willfully sins….”

      And there is the factor that it’s one thing to know in our head to forgive, but we’re told by Jesus to forgive from our hearts — and most people, including veteran Christians don’t know their hearts very well — which makes it easier for evil spirits to hide there to influence people.

      You talk about a certain tragic situation happening. Consider, for example the Amish whose children were murdered in cold blood in their school house. The normal and probably even correct short-term response would be anger, but to think: “I won’t forgive that man” would be sin even from the get go.

      And there would probably be a time required for that anger to simmer down, which the Bible gives us: the Matthew 5 scripture mentioned below and Ephesians 4: “don’t let the sun go down on your anger. Don’t give the Devil a place.”

      Maybe in this case a day wouldn’t be enough, but the point is to let it go — let God deal with that person — and to not hate back no matter what. There is a difference between anger and hate. And many hate to the point that they even wish evil on those who hurt them, which disqualifies them from going to heaven as long as they are cursing people, according to James 3.

      The Amish did the opposite. They actually went to the man who murdered their children and told him they forgave him.

      We have no excuse to not forgive. But realizing we need to forgive and actually forgiving is a process that few are totally mastering — like Jesus’ forgiving example on the cross and Stephen’s similar example while getting stoned to death by the religious leaders of that day.

      But we’re supposed to walk like Jesus walked. Stephen did it. We can too. And until we forgive everyone totally, from deep down in our hearts, evil spirits have a right to torment us and even make us sick (Matthew 18) — though in many cases these aren’t salvation disqualifiers because we’re going through this process of realizing we haven’t fully forgiven to then actively forgiving — as long as we’re not intentionally withholding forgiveness. See: Art Mathias on It’s Supernatural: Spiritual Roots of Disease — Healed Through Forgiving (If there is pain in a memory there is unforgiveness)

      I personally work on forgiving every day, and I also work hard to help what I call the Third Great Awakening to happen — where Christians will be ONE with each other in Christ like the early believers were in Acts — which is Jesus’ prayer for us in John 17. When ONE happens, the glory of God will be so evident that it will be easy to forgive. But ironically, willful unforgiving and not getting right with those we’ve hurt are keeping revival from happening — because “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

      I have many posts on the subject of forgiving, hating, cursing, which can be accessed in the Categories menu. Here are a few that are mainly just scripture:

      [WordPOWER!] Jesus Ups the Ante – Matthew 5:21-22: “YOU HAVE HEARD that it was said…, ‘You shall not murder’…. BUT I TELL YOU, that everyone who is ANGRY with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment”

      [WordPOWER!] Acts 17:30-31 God Upped the Ante when He Sent the Holy Spirit — “The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent…”

      [WordPower!] Jesus on forgiving to be free from demons in Matthew 18: “So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your HEARTS for his misdeeds.”

      [WordPOWER!] James — Demons WITHIN drive ‘Christians’ to curse people. “If you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition IN YOUR HEART” you’re probably a James-3 curser. If so, “don’t lie against the truth.” Instead, be a PEACEMAKER, “for they shall be called children of God.” – Jesus

      [WordPOWER!] Romans 12: Repay No One Evil for Evil — Don’t Curse — Give Place to God’s Wrath

      [WordPOWER!] “If you love those who love you, what reward do you have?”

      [WordPOWER!] Blessed are you when people insult you, falsely

      Here is a very interesting real life example:

      [video/text] Pastor DIES > goes to HELL because he HADN’T FORGIVEN his wife > AROSE from the dead almost 2 days later > tells story

      I encourage everyone to read the Bible for themselves to see what it really says — to make sure that what they have been taught is correct. There are powerful spiritual forces at work that have been very successful in keeping the truth about many issues from becoming common knowledge.

      It’s like we’re in The Matrix, if you’ve seen that movie — and this goes back almost two millennia. Luther’s reformation wasn’t a true reformation. It brought in another set of false doctrines in which Luther was deceived and he deceived others.

      We need to find out what the Bible and the Holy Spirit are really saying. And that’s what I try to do on this site — so we can be free now and forever — together — truly in Christ.

      “Then the world will know,” Jesus said in John 17. And we will be so happy!

      ––

      Deathbed Confessions?

      Oh, and you said: “People are saved in their last breath because they simply believed in Jesus Christ.”

      I really don’t think that many of these people who wait until they’re ready to die to “get right with God” really go to heaven. The thief on the cross isn’t like the average American who had all of these chances but put it off. Today is the day of salvation, to live in and for Christ now.

      Jesus said in Matthew 7:

      Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

      This is serious stuff, and the fact that so few people really make sure shows that evil spirits are hard at work in ‘Christians’ to keep them from understanding sufficiently so they can be free.

      “The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force,” Jesus said. We need to treat this like we’re in a war, because we are — and we can’t see the enemy. We need to be full out serious in order to not be defeated.

      The body of Christ is all split up to where people with certain gifts can’t help each other with them. And the confidence men, the pastors are mostly saying everything is fine. Just keep giving us your money without questioning our leadership.

      And then they pray against (James-3 curse) those who are saying: “wait a minute, the ‘church’ is actually sick to the brim.” And this threatens those in leadership who should really be trembling because of their dire future if they don’t repent.

      And the Devil’s slickest trick is to get people to think they’re going to heaven when they’re going straight to Hell to be eternally tormented. Yikes!!

      May real Christianity happen in our midst, before it’s too late.

      Jeff Fenske

      Like

  2. OBAS? Once Baptized, Always Saved? What are you talking about? Who believes that? Catholics Baptize babies, but they don’t teach that. Protestants who do the same say that that baby must make a personal act of faith later.
    It is the denominations that oppose infant Baptism that hols OSAS.

    Like

    1. Jim,

      They may not outright teach it, but that is what at least many Lutheran churches practice. I know firsthand.

      In our confirmation class we never said a prayer to get born-again and to serve God forever, because it was a given that we were saved when we were sprinkled as infants.

      In the Lutheran church (probably with few exceptions) it’s about what God did for us when we were baptized, and then believing that God did this for us when we were baptized.

      “It’s a dead religion,” I believe God is saying, and I’ve personally seen this to be true.

      Look at Luther’s own life in my “Luther Didn’t Get It” posts. This is not what the Bible teaches.

      In my experience in the Wisconsin Synod, being a Lutheran is about believing that you are saved, which is what Luther taught; though, we won’t be saved unless we are abiding in and following Christ, according to what the Bible really says: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?.

      Jeff

      Like

  3. Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

    In other words, if we think we have salvation through works, then we will lose our life. If we die to self, and have faith in Jesus, then we are saved.

    If anybody is in any doubt about salvation, then here it is:-

    Mathew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    So, all this talk about salvation kind of peels into insignificance when you read the above. Now, to understand how merciful God is, read this:-

    Mathew 25:14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
    19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’

    21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

    22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’

    23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

    24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

    26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

    28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    So in a nut shell it’s like this. Believe in Jesus and go and do/seek his will. Even if you do something with the little you have, then it will be noted and counted for. Even if you fail. What a merciful and fair God we have.

    We could spend all year arguing what sin would make us unsaved, but it’s clear what really matters. Think about how the Pharisees tried to pull Jesus up when corn was being picked on a Sabbath. I wonder what Jesus would be saying to us lot if he were walking down the road with us. Imagine we find ourselves swearing a lot whilst running a soup kitchen because of all the riff raff that turns up. Is Jesus really concerned with every small mistake we make? Think about it.

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