From: Sid Roth’s It’s Supernatural, July 14-20, 2008

My guest as a young man met elderly people
who were involved in the biggest move of miracles
in the history of America
.
It was called the Azusa Street Revival.
He tells me that he met some of the people and heard
first hand what occurred, stories such as ears
that did not exist popping back into place,
arms that did not exist coming out and growing,
these are called creative miracles.

Did you know that the Azusa Street Revival
that happened in the early 1900’s was the
first integrated church in America
?
God picked a one-eyed black man to lead the greatest
move of God’s Spirit in miracles I believe since the first
coming of the Messiah….

Sid: Now William Seymour prophesied about the next
revival that will come
, tell me about that.

Tommy: He prophesied that in about a hundred years,
he did this in 1909
, that there would be a…

Sid: So about a hundred years would be 2009?

Tommy: Yes, that would be about, before or after?

Sid: About, okay.

Tommy: He said another revival like unto Azusa Street
only greater would come again
, only this time it wouldn’t be
in one place, it would be all over the world….

[But it’s gotta start somewhere – jeff]

pdf of Entire Interview

Related:

The Azusa Street Revival (1906-15): The biggest move of miracles in the history of America — The fire of God’s glory on the roof! “Even the fingernails grew back!” In 1909, Seymour prophesied the next revival will come in about 100 years! We’re due!!!

(audio) Sid Roth on ‘Coast to Coast AM’ 9/1/13: Miracles & Healing — Why did the Azusa St. revival stop (1906-1909)? William Seymour “became too sophisticated for the box” — to hear and obey — but prophesied an even greater revival would happen in 100 years!

Tommy Welchel on William Seymour and Charles Parham’s 100-Year Prophecy: On the same day in 1909, hundreds of miles apart, they both prophesied God’s visible shekina glory would return to earth after 100 years, but this time everywhere!

Wes Hall [IHOP] on William Seymour’s 1909 prophecy of the shekinah glory returning to the church in 100 years: “Let me tell you about the church in the book of Acts. …the fear of God was on the community, and no one dared join them. But they were highly esteemed. Why did no one dare join them?”

Sid Roth: The missing ingredient, speaking in tongues — “I believe that God wants to restore this gift for the last great push of God’s spirit”

Effects of the WELSH REVIVAL 1904-05: Whole communities were radically changed FROM DEPRAVITY TO GLORIOUS GOODNESS. The CRIME RATE dropped, often to nothing. THE POLICE had little more to do than supervise the coming and going of the people to the chapel prayer meetings. THE UNDERGROUND MINES echoed with the sounds of PRAYER and HYMNS, instead of nasty jokes and gossip. People who had fallen out BECAME FRIENDS AGAIN!!!!!!!

The Welsh Revival of 1904-05 by J. Edwin Orr: A Countrywide Asbury-like REVIVAL! The 4 Points: #1 Confess any known sin, and put any wrong done to man right again. #2 Put away any doubtful habit. #3 Obey the Spirit promptly. #4 Confess your faith publicly.

Asbury Revival, 1970: “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘Dr. Kinlaw, I’m free!’”

Can ‘Christians’ use Paul’s “Forgetting the things which are behind…I press on” statement as an excuse to not get right with those they’ve hurt? Paul also said: “I also practice ALWAYS having a conscience void of offense toward God and men.” What if you don’t repent? And what will happen when you do? The Third Great Awakening can start with us!!! We can all be happy — ‘ONE’!

Advertisements

26 thoughts on “William Seymour, 1909: Next Revival Will Come in About 100 Years – It’s Due! — Another revival like unto AZUSA Street, only GREATER, would come again, only this time it wouldn’t be in one place, it would be ALL OVER THE WORLD!!!

  1. Dear rabbi,

    Surely, but it’s so sad to see that God’s people are so blind and stubborn that it takes falling into what will probably be the greatest depression before the people are willing to be holy enough for God to be able to show up.

    Jesus has been waiting so long. Talk about frustration! I feel it, perhaps you do. Imagine how frustrated and grieved Jesus’ heart is seeing people who call themselves by His name walk in so much filth — even destroying other nations and still not willing to apologize.

    Now this depression will bring us to our knees. It’s so sad that it’s come to this. Had only people listened. For people were crying out with the truth but were ridiculed and James-3 cursed.

    But we must not hold this against them. Father, forgive them for they know not what they do — even with the Holy Spirit inside of them, I still believe this applies. The deception is so great and so complete.

    So I suppose it’s time I accept the downturn that’s coming as a good thing, because the spiritual fruit that will come will cause many to turn from their wicked ways. And life together in Christ under bad conditions is better than Godless, dead spirituality under prosperous conditions.

    The joy of the Lord is about to return en mass to those who want to participate. But why did we have to lose it all before we woke up?

    Jeff Fenske :( [I’m actually really saddened by this.]

    Like

  2. hello….brothers and sisters in Christ…I was so excitied to see this web page!! My family and I are a part of Morning Star church. There is a Holy Spirit out break that is happening there in Fort Mills, SC. God is really revealing his presences!!! It is amazing and so awesome to be alive in this day in time despite all the labor pains the earth is enduring. Be ready beacause God is here with his Children and his Spirit is stronger than before!!! He is so awesome and is moving on the behalf of his children’s cry for his presences in this day and age…..be moved…be touched by his Spirit…..live for him like you never have before….he is still in control!!!! God Bless.

    Like

    1. Ali,

      This is good to hear! I’m somewhat familiar with Morning Star from way back, but not so much recently, except for the Paul Cain low point. I hope he’s doing well again. I still think of Paul’s “Joel’s Place” dreams at times. All sporting events cancelled, but the arenas are filled with faceless (selfless) people praying for the sick.

      I was on Morning Star’s tape of the month club for a number of years, and I attended a Morning Star conference about 20 years ago. I consider Rick Joyner’s book, “The Final Quest” to still be very significant. I quoted this part (which I’m very excited about) in a post at my site:

      When we reached the level called “The Unity of the Brethren,” none of the enemy’s arrows could reach us. …

      When we reached the level called “Galatians Two Twenty,” we were above the altitude that the vultures could fly. At this level the sky above almost blinded us with its brightness and beauty. I felt peace like I had never felt it before. …

      The “Galatians Two Twenty” level was so wide that there was no longer any danger of falling. … Faith, Hope and Love…were now so large that I knew people far beyond the battle area could see them. Their glory even radiated into the camp of prisoners who were still under a great cloud of vultures. The exhilaration continued to grow in all of us. I felt that being in this army, in this battle, had to be one of the greatest adventures of all time.

      Ali, I’m curious. Could you tell me if you see this somewhat happening at Morning Star yet?

      I’ve been watching the revival at IHOP pretty closely. I’m very excited about it, but it seems that they’re missing some key ingredients in order for ONE (what Rick calls “the unity of the brethren” and what Jesus called us to be in John 17) to fully happen.

      I don’t see hardly any teaching or testimonies about the importance for people to get right with those they’ve hurt, which was the focus during the Asbury Revival, 1970, that was so powerful! https://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/asbury-revival-1970-dr-kinlaw-i-am-a-liar-now-what-do-i-do

      I don’t think things are really going to rock n’ roll until serious repentance and holiness is called for. And I don’t see the fear of God to be much of an ingredient yet for everyone goes to heaven almost no matter what, it seems is the mainstream teaching even among charismatics.

      Is there much teaching on holiness at Morning Star now that will help lead this move into something deeply significant, do you think?

      Is there a deep reverence for God, or is it mainly just a joy thing. I’m not against the joy thing at all, but I don’t believe what Rick prophesied would happen in The Final Quest is going to happen until there is serious holiness and reverence toward God.

      Jeff Fenske Anchorage, Alaska

      Like

  3. Can anyone actually verify that this prophecy was spoken by Seymour. I’ve been trying to track down a credible source to determine if it’s indeed an authentic Seymour prophecy. I’m not suggesting that revival won’t come, but I think we should have the integrity to search out a matter. I’ve spoken to a scholar in the Charismatic stream who never saw this prophecy when he searched the Azusa Street Revival papers. Nonetheless I’m grateful for the influence of William Seymour and the Azusa Street Revival.

    Like

    1. Brian,

      If you do find out that it isn’t legit, please let me know. This is the first time I’ve heard there might be a problem.

      Also, I thought this guest on Sid’s show had written a book, and I checked the transcript, which can be found through the link on this post, and he did:

      Tommy Welchel’s book,
      Azusa Street, They Told Me Their Stories

      The quote you’re looking for may not be in this, but there are other books on Azusa out there too. If you live near a Bible college or seminary, you may try their library, if you can’t find anything online. But I would think that this scholar probably looked at them.

      Hmmm, it would be sad if someone made up a statement like that. It’s hard to believe that a revival interested person would do such a thing. What would their motive be?

      Regardless, the revival is coming with or without this prophecy. Even without the fall of America, getting our doctrine right on salvation would alone bring revival, in my opinion.

      Jeff Fenske

      Like

    2. William seymour spoke of it orally, it was only documented afterwards at the same day miles apart in a span of a few hours Charles Parham gave the same prophesy, his is recorded. I have spoken to his grandson who is from Topeka where Charles Parham had a school and Seymore attended that school prior to going to azuza. There was a third during the same time, off the top of my head can not remember the name. I have met Charles Parham’s grandson. Hope u find this helpful. This is to be global, it has already begun.

      Like

  4. Surely the Shekainah Glory is back i confirm the prophesy of man of God William Seymour. In Zimbabwe ,Chinhoyi , Chinhoyi University of Technology we have a testimony of the the Glory. Glory to God.

    Like

  5. Revival is due? What happened to the last six revivals that I attended at that charismatic church? Weren’t those “revivals”? The church leaders certainly touted them as such.

    Why are we looking for these “end-times revivals” when nothing in the Bible suggests that there will be one? We are to focus on living holy and let God move as He chooses. The church is too busy manufacturing revivals and prophetic predictions. It’s embarrassing to the name of Christ to be so foolish and so wrong so often! The Bible does not warrant such conjecture, nor does any alleged move of the Spirit.

    Like

    1. PhileoTruth,

      Regarding your first paragraph, please read What is Real Revival? to see more of where I stand regarding the so-called recent revivals that fell short of real revival because of a lack of repentance and getting right with one another fully.

      Jesus prayed that we’d be ONE with each other in Christ “that the world may know. … The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one — perfected into one; that the world may know.”

      John 17:

      20 Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.

      22 The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one; 23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.

      The glory is given to Christians that they may be ONE. This is what happened in Acts, and has happened a number of times in church history.

      Right now, the world smells a rat, so they don’t want much to do with Christianity, because we’re not ONE. We’re not one with each other and most Christians aren’t “in Christ” according to Romans 8:1b (the verse missing in most modern translations, but it’s in 8:4) and other scriptures.

      And you can say that we are to focus on living holy, but how many ‘Christians’ really are to the biblical degree, such as in all three of the passages in my header?

      Most ‘Christians’ are lukewarm and will be spit out of God’s mouth. These are all things that the Bible clearly says. And look at what Jesus said to the church of Sardis in Rev. 3. Most churches were already missing it before AD 100, and we’re in worse shape than them, not even having a reputation for being alive.

      And from a non-charismatic perspective, you can see that I’ve talked a lot about the Asbury Revival (and so do many non-charismatics — even Calvinist seminary professors), which I consider a real revival: Asbury Revival, 1970: “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘Dr. Kinlaw, I’m free!’”

      Most ‘Christians’ lust, hate, and/or lie. All of these things disqualify them from going to heaven. I hope you’ve read my Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? article by now. You never seem to bring it up; though, it’s loaded with Bible, most of which has been excised from pastors’ teachings so the false, once-saved-always-saved theory rules the day, and is destroying America, sending most ‘Christians’ to hell, thinking they are going to heaven.

      And the Welsh Revival was like a nationwide Asbury, also not considered charismatic; though, the glory of God was why 100,000 people became Christians, and it transformed the entire country: The Welsh Revival of 1904-05 by J. Edwin Orr: A Countrywide Asbury-like REVIVAL! The 4 Points: #1 Confess any known sin, and put any wrong done to man right again. #2 Put away any doubtful habit. #3 Obey the Spirit promptly. #4 Confess your faith publicly.

      Most of us Americans don’t really know what hardship is like. But we’re going to get it, and if we’re not ONE in Christ it’s going to be unbelievably bad. Many will even sell their souls to take the Mark of the Beast, if this does happen in our lifetimes, and everything points to it.

      Regarding Scriptures that show that we’re supposed to be walking close enough to God for miracles like healing to occur: what did Peter tell the crowd at Pentecost? “In the last days, God will….” Why would you think we’re not in the last days if they were in the last days?

      And since you already understand that the NIV is based on a corrupted Greek text, when they say that Mark 16 isn’t valid, then you must accept Mark 16 as being true, since you believe the Bible is the word of God.

      Do you accept Mark 16 as true? What about Jesus’ prayer that we’d be ONE? And aren’t we in the last days at least as much as the church was on Pentecost?

      Jeff

      Like

      1. @Jeff,

        As I said in a previous reply, I don’t care about the NIV. Thumping it in response to my posts is unnecessary. That’s your ax to grind.

        You said, “Most ‘Christians’ lust, hate, and/or lie. All of these things disqualify them from going to heaven.” –So a Christian will go to heaven if he/she lives perfectly. What about the finished work of Christ? And why single out those three sins? (Are those three that you don’t believe that you do anymore?)

        I do agree that our oneness in Christ was indeed the prayer of Jesus before His crucifixion. How we attain to that oneness is by His orchestration, not by singling out sins or second marriages as saying that THOSE (all caps) are the obstacles to our oneness in Him. No. Rather, when we come to agreement in the faith of who He is and His finished work. There are numerous secondary issues that we will not agree upon.

        Moreover, Christ did not promise revival as the reward for us coming into oneness. Yes, it would be a testimony to the world– the passage is clear. It does not make revival contingent upon that. Is there any evidence that “oneness” was attained prior to the other historical revivals? Or did God sovereignly revive His people thereby bringing them into oneness with Himself?

        I caution that your posts tend to have a legalistic bent. You seem to emphasize works (mostly thou shalt nots– such as second marriages) over faith in Christ and adherence to His word. Remember, we all have failed the Law at one point or the other, even as Christians. None of us (you included) keeps the Law perfectly even as Christians. It is His perfection that saves and redeems us, not ours.

        Again, revival is not promised to be repeated until He comes again. If it does happen, God sovereignly chose to orchestrate it and then after it has begun, His church recognizes that it is His doing. Any other way, and “revival” is the manufactured product of church technique.

        Like

        1. PhileoTruth,

          In the many conversations we’ve had so far, I get the impression from you that you’re more interested in winning an argument than in finding out what the Bible really says about the subjects we’re discussing.

          I try to carefully respond to what you’re saying and it’s as if you didn’t even read half of what I said.

          And then you say I’m ‘thumping’ the NIV topic here. I just brought it up because two of the verses I chose to quote here have been removed from the NIV and others, and I’m trying to make sure this isn’t a problem in your way of thinking — that you fully accept Romans 8:1b and all of Mark 16. And then you don’t even comment on either of these verses at all.

          Also, in a number of your comments so far, you seem to also be particularly cynical about my motivations. To tell you the total truth, I’d be totally happy if I didn’t have to go through all the work of doing this site (and ToBeFree also) if these problems were being successfully being dealt with.

          I’d be happy doing photography, or whatever. I’m totally appalled at the state of the ‘church,’ right now. I’m personally convinced that most ‘Christians’ aren’t going-to-heaven Christians. Most really do lust and/or hate and/or lie. That’s why I brought those particular sins up. I also brought up Romans 8:1b, which is not a list, but rather a description of what it means to be in Christ. You seem to just pick and choose in order to win the argument — staying within your canon in the Canon. An explanation I found online, the Canon being all of scripture:

          “Everyone has a canon within the canon, Zahl suggested, that sums up the Bible’s message. Most of us, he added, find it difficult to live with other parts of scripture that conflict with our personal canon.”

          And it’s you who have been emphasizing the divorce/re’marriage’ issue, writing many comments about it and bringing it up again here. I wrote one post on the subject and a follow-up. It’s not currently even in my Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? article, but it could be.

          Have you carefully read it? I ask one more time.

          If you think I’m being legalistic, then you would also think that Paul and the other New Testament writers are also legalistic, because I’m just saying what they said.

          And remember Romans 8:1b and also “those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God,” Paul continues in Romans 8.

          You say: “What about the finished work of Christ?”

          Prayerfully, with a humble heart, read “Who-Goes-To-Heaven…,” and you’ll have your answer.

          You said:

          Again, revival is not promised to be repeated until He comes again. If it does happen, God sovereignly chose to orchestrate it and then after it has begun, His church recognizes that it is His doing. Any other way, and “revival” is the manufactured product of church technique.

          What I’m saying is that real revival is just getting us back to real Christianity, the way that God sovereignly chose we were to be living all along — as all three texts in my header show.

          I said:

          Do you accept Mark 16 as true? What about Jesus’ prayer that we’d be ONE? And aren’t we in the last days at least as much as the church was on Pentecost?

          The only thing you mentioned in response was Jesus’ prayer, and then totally ignored the glory part, saying this:

          I do agree that our oneness in Christ was indeed the prayer of Jesus before His crucifixion. How we attain to that oneness is by His orchestration, not by singling out sins or second marriages as saying that THOSE (all caps) are the obstacles to our oneness in Him. No. Rather, when we come to agreement in the faith of who He is and His finished work.

          The absolute truth is that these sins, including the ones you’re bringing up do keep us from oneness.

          And millions of ‘Christians’ now agree in “the faith” and on the “finished work of Christ,” which I suppose you mean to be once-saved-always-saved, and it’s doing the opposite of making oneness happen.

          You say: “There are numerous secondary issues that we will not agree upon.” [emphasis mine] Why is that? Why don’t Christians come into agreement about church doctrine?

          Why do you think that is, when the Bible really is clear on most things, and we have the same Holy Spirit Who is supposed to lead us into all truth?

          I think this guy pretty much sums it up:

          “Everyone has a canon within the canon, Zahl suggested, that sums up the Bible’s message. Most of us, he added, find it difficult to live with other parts of scripture that conflict with our personal canon.”

          If you’re not willing to carefully consider scriptures outside of your canon, it seems that I’m just wasting my time bringing up scriptures that you don’t hold at the same level as those that are in your canon.

          I think this is in part where the term “full Gospel” comes from. Many evangelicals (and charismatics) aren’t really willing to look at the full Gospel — or many of us would have been ‘ONE’ long ago.

          The truth is uncomfortable. We must be willing to embrace it all — or most will perish.

          jeff

          Like

          1. @Jeff,

            It’s not about winning an argument but about cutting through the legalistic burdens that you are trying to saddle upon the body of Christ. The uncomfortable truth of the matter is that your positions are dangerous misapplications of Scripture. What you propose is more harmful and yes, legalistic, than edifying to the body of Christ.

            Yes, we are “once-saved-always-saved” in Christ. We did nothing to earn salvation so we can do nothing to lose it. Salvation is the complete work of God- not us. We benefit solely by His sovereign grace. We have no boast in earning salvation, nor in retaining it. God alone saves us in spite of us (consider Ephesians 2:8-9)!

            Who deemed you fit to single out which sins (second marriages or lust, lying, and hate) are keeping us from “oneness”? Upon what basis do you choose to single those out? Does John 17 identify those specific sins as being obstacles to the “oneness” that Jesus prayed for? Please cite the specific verses.

            As for Romans 8:1b– have you read 1 John 1:8? Do you claim to be without sin– even as a believer? Didn’t Paul himself admit to struggling with sin in Romans 7? Paul recognized victory through Christ in chapter 8 of Romans, but never suggested that a believer would not sin or cease to.

            Real revival is the sovereign work of God. It is begun by His sovereign act, regardless of what we are doing– lest we could boast that our holiness invoked God’s revival! Lest we boast that eliminating our second marriages, lusts, hate, and lies brought on God’s revival. No! God will begin revival as He chooses– just as He will return to judge the earth at a time that He chooses. My contention with your proposition is that it affronts the sovereignty of God.

            The sovereign moves of God in the lives of His people is not a canon within a canon. It is clear throughout the scriptures that God initiated contact with humanity when He chose and He orchestrated events for His purposes. The church, for as much as I would AGREE WITH YOU, that it should return to holiness, your prescriptions are legalistic, prideful (as they single out sins that perhaps you don’t personally feel that you struggle with), and utterly harmful in their implications to the body of Christ. THAT IS the uncomfortable truth, Jeff.

            As for your “Who goes to heaven” article, the bottom line is that the Scriptural precepts for the holiness that is required to enter into God’s presence describes ONLY Christ Jesus. For as much as we desire to attain to all of those descriptive passages you selected, we all fall short. If ever any of us perfectly carried out the holiness prescription for an instant, then God would have to translate us so that we don’t falter in the next moment. The truth is that the Bible shows us how far we have fallen from God’s perfection. In Christ we are JUDICIALLY ACCOUNTED TO BE righteous, not that we ever perfectly attain it.

            And so, to try to keep all the do’s and don’ts is to put us under legalism– trying to keep a Law that we have already broken and been found guilty of.

            I promise, God is not waiting for any of us (and never mind ALL of us) to get ourselves so correct according to the law that He will send revival. I rejoice that God’s sovereignty is greater than my and the church’s propensity to sin. He will send revival as He chooses in spite of us– and will humble us with such an expression of grace.

            Like

            1. I posted yesterday, and just now expanded this article, in part because of the above comments by PhileoTruth, and also because of the timing of Francis’ email.

              Francis Frangipane: Holiness Precedes Power | More of my experiences at Trinity and in the Vineyard Movement | Why did John and Chris Whimber die?

              Most of the professors at Trinity taught what PhileoTruth is stating.

              The hate and anger was fierce — totally reverse-Christian!

              John Wimber was enemy #1 — so things could get back to ‘normal.’

              jeff

              Like

            2. I’ve hesitated to respond to PhileoTruth. Here’s why.

              Later in the day after reading his posts, I went for a prayer walk, which I often do. I heard: “I don’t care what you think.”

              At first, I thought this may not be from God. This seems kind of cold. But then I heard it again. I’ve waited a week to make sure that I’m stating this correctly.

              PhileoTruth belongs to a theological mindset that is fairly prevalent in Christianity. Much of this is based in Calvinism. I have a category called Calvin didn’t get it. And what Calvin didn’t get almost certainly includes not getting eternal life in heaven. You’ll see why if you read the posts.

              Not all Calvinists are cessationists and sola scriptura (scripture alone) adherents. But for those who are, I’ve been lately thinking this actually borders on a being an anti-trinitarian cult. They aren’t saying that the Holy Spirit isn’t God. They just relegate Him out our lives. Now that we have the written word, the Bible, we don’t need to be led by the Holy Spirit even though numerous texts say otherwise. We don’t have to relate to Him according to what Paul and many other New Testament writers clearly say. Generally, if you meet these people, their lack of relationship with God shows. You’ll see that their ‘Christianity’ is mostly just cerebral. There isn’t much of the greatest commandment going on — love the Lord, your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength.

              And so many scriptures they just throw away, saying they don’t apply to us anymore. With their once-saved-always-saved doctrine they can’t lose their salvation if they ever had it.

              And they often say “God is sovereign” to push the idea that God even chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell (though they don’t talk about that much) — which they say gives God more glory. Yuck! I can’t think of a bigger turn-off to God than to claim that He alone decides from before the person was even born where they will go — up or down.

              There is no doubt that God is sovereign, but they ignore how the Bible clearly shows how God has sovereignly chosen to limit His control, giving us free will and the responsibility for our own actions. Therefore, there will be consequences if we have been truly born-again but then don’t abide in Christ, bearing fruit that will remain.

              They usually believe in the pre-trib rapture too. Before things get bad they’ll be out of here, even though most don’t even really personally know the One Who is supposed to pull them out.

              This is the Devil’s perfect formula non-Christianity.

              Jesus said that those who don’t abide in the Vine will be cast into the fire and burned (John 15). And Paul said there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, who do not live according to the flesh but by the Spirit (Romans 8:1&b — b is missing in the NIV and some others). Paul said those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God (Romans 8).

              So these people of this strange (but very popular) reverse-Christian doctrine cannot be real Christians.

              If they’re not Christians, why should we care what they say when their doctrines are from demons, twisted amalgamations designed to fool as many into hell as possible?

              So unless I am convinced otherwise, I don’t see any reason to care what doctrine twisters are trying to push. I shouldn’t waste my time trying to influence them when they don’t even consider as applicable to them much of the New Testament scriptures. There is no way to come into agreement when their Bible is smaller than ours.

              For the readers who really do love truth, I will explain some of the misapplications of scripture done by this particular individual.

              I had already refuted his charge that speaking in tongues is mainly (or even only) about speaking in known languages as a sign for those hearing. I answered here, explaining scripture with scripture. But this person isn’t interested in what Paul says about the matter. He has his mind made up, so discussion is pointless.

              His style is to focus on just a few scriptures (in this case one) that are in his canon, ignoring all of the others that disagree his interpretation.

              This is the canon within the Canon thing that I mentioned above:

              “Everyone has a canon within the canon, Zahl suggested, that sums up the Bible’s message. Most of us, he added, find it difficult to live with other parts of scripture that conflict with our personal canon.”

              Only those who are capable of relaxing enough, and be unbiased enough to consider scriptures that disagree with their premises can accurately interpret the Bible.

              Most of today’s theologians have demons in them, religious spirits that drive them to believe dogma, instead of being able to relax and be led by the Holy Spirit over time to see what the scriptures mean. And then it is common for them to pray (James-3 curse) that others believe these same doctrines, just as they were James-3 cursed with religious spirits that push them to believe doctrines of demons, which OSAS and cessationism absolutely are.

              It’s ironic that speaking in tongues helps us be free from demons, but their doctrine of demons won’t allow them to speak in tongues, which could set them free. Bound by religious spirits, they just rattle on.

              Putting it differently, the very people who are cessationists are demon-driven to believe the doctrine of demons that tongues have ceased. They then refuse to speak in tongues so they can be free from the religious spirits that keep them in this hermeneutical prison.

              As for once-saved-always-saved, this is refuted by many articles and videos on this site, if anyone is interested. Click on the Who Goes To Heaven category in the pull-down menu on the right for the posts in reverse chronological order. It’s a no-brainer, but one must look outside the box of the currently popular scriptures.

              If a person argues that Jesus’ teachings don’t apply to him or her, then this is part of what keeps them as not being a follower of Christ, no matter what they think or say. It’s a dillusion.

              When we’re asked if we’ve read 1 John 1:8, we can respond by saying, “have you read the rest of 1 John?” It’s great to know that we can repent and be forgiven, but we don’t stay that way. It’s amazing how anyone can focus on 1:8 when almost all of 1 John talks about maximum holiness that frees people up so the demons can’t even affect us, if we learn how to walk in perfect love, which casts out all fear. And then the evil one can’t touch us.

              It’s amazing how small are the canons of so many!

              Romans 7 is Paul talking about how it was for him before he became born-again, empowered by the Holy Spirit so he could then live in Romans 8 — led by the Spirit.

              Real revival is just getting back to real Christianity, which God is longing to help us to do, once we get tired of living in the pig pen.

              The scriptures in my Who-Goes-To-Heaven article apply to everyone. We ignore them at our own peril, for we will be accountable to what the Bible really says. Paul said: “don’t be deceived, whatsoever a man sows that does he reap…” (Galatians 6). Saying that these scriptures don’t apply to us is the throwing out of scripture. This is what Luther did.

              From the comment below:
              There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that Jesus’ teachings don’t apply to us. He was bringing in the new covenant which they yet couldn’t handle, because they didn’t have the Holy Spirit yet.

              Matthew 5 is a good example. Jesus said: “It has been said…, but I say….” Jesus was upping the ante, the requirements, because now we have the Holy Spirit, the grace to overcome, the third Person of the trinity that they mainly throw out as irrelevant.

              Jesus doesn’t just say things that he doesn’t expect people to actually do. This is ridiculous, but I can partly understand on this one, because there was a time when I didn’t take Jesus’ words seriously enough, myself.

              There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that once something Jesus said would happen to believers happened, then it was fulfilled to never happen again to other believers. This is twisting scripture.

              At times the early church got it right, and at other times they didn’t, which is especially shown in Rev. 2 and 3, along with the consequences.

              Jesus’ teachings weren’t mainly historical narratives to be dismissed as just for then. The only exceptions I can think of would be certain specific statements to individuals. Such as, when Jesus told the Pharisee to still tithe, the Holy Spirit hadn’t come yet, so he was still under the law. Most of what Jesus taught was new covenant theology applicable until He comes back, because now we have the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity that they’re mostly relegating away.

              Therefore, I think their teaching borders on being an anti-Trinitarian cult.

              People who refuse to believe that we are even suppose to be led by the Spirit can’t be Christians because Paul said “Those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God.” We must abide in Christ or we aren’t real Christians.

              Faux Christians should be learning from real Christians, not the other way around.

              jeff

              Like

              1. @Jeff,
                I’ve been cautioning you all along about false conclusions. To think that it is God telling you not to care what I think is utterly a delusion of your own mind. So, if because I may represent a somewhat Calvinist p.o.v., is that grounds for taking so nasty a posture to the views that I challenge you with. You obviously are someone who must have everyone agree with him (before or after he argues them down). You yourself are quite contentious in your posts.

                Jeff, you don’t realize how dangerous your conclusions/propositions are. You also falsely ascribe to me an “anti-trinitarian cult” label when I have said nothing of the Holy Spirit, much less denied Him.

                Your posture on these posts are cult-like. You want to be the “prophet” whose words we all fall in line for– but you are bucking quite strongly against other reasoned p.o.v.s like my own. If you don’t want iron to sharpen iron, then quit posting. Or block people from posting to your page. Or, maybe you aren’t “iron” after all, but some softer material.

                If you want to retain your salvation by works, or perserverance by works salvation, then that’s on you. Jesus paid the price for our sins– God called the believer into salvation and has not entrusted it to the believer to retain. Otherwise, what is point of the Holy Spirit as the seal of our salvation until redemption(Ephesians 4:30)? God initiates our salvation and He completes it. Thank God that He does.

                You have taken a lot of passages and spun your own conclusions– I call them into question. You went public with this material, so deal with the range of replies. Do so, not as a defensive, caustic, attitude-bunny, but regard me as a fellow student of the Word with a different p.o.v.

                Like

                1. BTW Jeff,

                  In the spirit of John 17, agree with me on my conclusions (which are more soundly reasoned using proper hermeneutics than are yours), so that we will have unity in the body of Christ. If God sends revival, then I will concur to you.

                  Like

          2. @Jeff,

            One other point (I just realized the hermeneutical issue here)– Is the prayer of John 17 or Mark 16 that you have been citing intended to be understood as a perpetual prayer for all generations? Hermeneutically speaking, the Gospels of John and Mark are historical narratives– which meant that they happened and in the epistles (particularly Acts) that followed, we should have found fulfillment of what Jesus prayed.

            You commented on what happened in the early church– but recognize that even it dealt with a lot of carnality (read the Pauline epistles, particularly to Galatians and Corinthians). The early church didn’t have it right either– yet, many of us in the church hold them up as the standard. No. The then-present apostles did do miracles at the time as the canon of Scripture was open– it confirmed their teachings. Otherwise, the early church had its sin-problems just as we do and every other generation of the church has had since Christ ascended.

            Back to my original point in this reply– Mark 16’s passage about speaking in new tongues and taking up snakes, etc– found their fulfillments and were documented in the book of Acts!

            Tongues– Acts 2:6-14– and those “tongues” were the languages of the 14+ nations then-present. The tongue-talkers spoke to the people in their native languages.

            Bitten by snake– Paul in Acts 28:2-5.

            We are NOT awaiting any further fulfillment of what the Lord spoke in Mark 16.

            Moreover, John 17– the prayer of Jesus for “oneness”– was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:1 “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” Jesus’ prayer, like ALL of His dialogue recorded in Scripture was for His THEN-PRESENT disciple– those who were physically alive and following Him then.

            In no other historical narrative would you read it as if it is speaking to you today. This is a significant hermeneutical problem that leads to many of the false conclusions that the church believes and propagates today.

            Jeff, please consider this. Thank you.

            Like

        2. I just posted D. A. Carson: The Problem of the Canon Within the Canon — A subset of scriptures taught in exclusion of those that would result in true doctrine to more fully explain the “canon within the Canon” problem.

          In it, I also link to comments in which I explain why systematic theology without the application of Biblical theology (a different discipline which focuses on context and author’s style) has also lead to erroneous doctrine.

          jeff

          Like

    1. Many have “believed God,” but it’s mainly what we do that will allow God to fill us with His glory. The once-saved-always-saved false teaching, as well as some others have deceived many into thinking they don’t need to be right with God and each other to be going-to-heaven, real Christians. Jesus’ goal is for us to be ‘ONE’ with each other in Him (John 17), which requires us to really be ONE with each other.

      If God showed up right now the way He has in past revivals even many pastors would be in the Ananias and Sapphira category, having lied to the people — and refusing to get right.

      This site is dedicated to discover the blockages that are keeping ‘ONE’ from happening, so ONE can happen.

      I believe the number one reason is false doctrine: once-saved-always-saved; tithing instead of being led by the Holy Spirit; demons can’t be in Christians; rampant James-3 cursing (especially by pastors) not mentioned; pastors don’t need to be ‘blameless’ according to 1 Timothy; prophets should be sidelined and ignored; pre-trib rapture; warmongering and torturing is peacemaking; the greatest commandment being greatly ignored, and the second greatest commandment being selectively applied; etc..

      Most ‘Christians’ do not have clear consciences, and therefore rightfully feel *condemnation*, but K-LOVE and the pastors work 24/7 trying to convince willfully sinning ‘Christians’ that they only feel *conviction*, because they leave out the second half of Romans 8:1, and much of the rest of what the New Testament teaches:

      “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but *according to the Spirit*.” – Romans 8:1

      The deception in the last days will be great. ‘ONE’ will happen when one group of people somewhere sees through the deception and become ‘ONE’ with each other. The proof of this will be the world then knowing, according to what Jesus said in John 17. And this is just supposed to be real Christianity that happens all the time when Jesus’ people are really walking in love, doing the greatest two commandments.

      jeff

      Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s