One Can Happen

March 8, 2009

12 Reasons NOT To Expect a PRE-Trib Rapture

Filed under: Doctrines Demystified,Doctrines of Demons?,Escape Persecution? — Jeff Fenske @ 7:42 am

From: ToughIssues.org

“RAPTURE TIMING AND DISPENSATIONALISM”

By Darryl Eberhart

[…]

VIII. SUMMARY

1. As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is NO SINGLE verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Trib Rapture.

2. Pre-Trib’ers FORCE ASSUMPTIONS on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect” (who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”) must refer to “those individuals who are saved” AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place. (Again, how are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the “Church” and the “restrainer” [i.e., the Holy Spirit according to Pre-Trib’ers] have been removed?)

3. We are NOT able to find one single instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, or the Apostle John made any statement to the effect that “the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years PRIOR to the beginning of the end-times’ tribulation period”. Isn’t that a bit strange if the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is the correct one?

4. Despite taking several texts OUT OF CONTEXT from a few early church fathers’ writings, the Pre-Trib’ers really CANNOT find any predominant, popular teaching that supports the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint in any era of Church history prior to the 1830s.

5. Many learned men of the Christian faith, such as John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitefield, etc., were all solid Post-Trib believers!

6. The Pre-Trib Rapture is a very big “cash cow” for Pre-Trib writers. Yet, there are some Pre-Trib’ers who will admit that the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is still a minority viewpoint among Bible scholars. How can that be, you may ask, since so many prophecy books favor the Pre-Trib” viewpoint? That is because so many of the major “Christian” publishing houses are, for the most part, CONTROLLED by “liberal Christians”. Post-Trib writers often find it extremely hard to get their books published by these publishing houses, because Pre-Trib “sells”. (Could that be because the Pre-Trib Rapture appeals to an “escapist” mentality? It’s that mentalityof “I sure don’t want to be here when the Antichrist takes over!” The Pre-Trib Rapture viewpoint appeals to our “flesh” – after all, who wants to face persecution?) Also, Dr. Robert “Bob” Gundry says that most of the professors [at Bible colleges] that he knows hold the Post-Trib Rapture viewpoint. He adds that even some of the professors at Bible colleges of the “Pre-Trib Rapture persuasion” hold the Post-Trib viewpoint, but cannot say so publicly for fear of losing their positions! Students who openly advocate Post-Trib at these “Pre-Trib Bible colleges” might not be allowed to graduate!

7. Despite the fact that many Pre-Trib’ers dislike author Dave MacPherson, they have NOT been able to disprove his well-documented findings that show that the Pre-Trib Rapture’s origins (as far as any public teaching) date back to the 1830s – and not earlier than that era! Nor have the Pre-Trib’ers been able to disprove MacPherson’s findings that the vast majority of the early church fathers taught that the church would go THROUGH the “end-times’ tribulation” – and lots of tribulation along the way to the “end-times’ tribulation”.

8. Public teaching of the Pre-Trib Rapture originated in the British Isles during the 1830s. (The Jesuits did some “futurist creativity” in the prophetic arena many years prior to that time.) The Pre-Trib “theory” was then “transported” to America a little bit later, and was popularized by the “Scofield Study Bible”.

9. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, one must ignore several key Bible verses that speak directly against the Pre-Trib Rapture, such as John 17:15 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself prays that the Father NOT take believers OUT OF the world – and I Thessalonians 4:16, 17 (which says that the Christians living at the time of Jesus Christ’s return are not caught up UNTIL AFTER the “dead in Christ” are raised FIRST)!

10. Believing in the Pre-Trib Rapture, it seems to me, goes AGAINST the prevalent theme of those portions of the Bible that deal with tribulation and persecution. That prevalent theme is preservation IN THE MIDST OF tribulation”. (Please recall the accounts of Daniel in the lions’ den, and of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace!)

11. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, you have to ASSUME that you will be among a very “select group” of Christians who will not have to suffer horrible things during the “end-times’ tribulation”. Your “select group” excludes those MILLIONS of Christians from past centuries who were NOT “air evacuated” out of their tribulation and suffering, and the many individuals who get “saved” (i.e., are “born again”) during the “end-times’ tribulation”, and who will suffer martyrdom!

12. The Pre-Trib Rapture viewpoint, for the most part, seems to produce very BAD FRUIT – that is, it seems to have “neutralized” many Christians living today, causing them to sit back and to NOT fight evil. (And that’s, because, don’t you know, they won’t be here when things get really bad.) Could this “doctrine” have been specifically designed to “neutralize” Christians?

Read Entire Article

Related:

Jesuit Pretrib Rapture History – To take the heat off the Pope — Manuel Lacunza > Edward Irving > Margaret MacDonald > John Nelson Darby > Cyrus Ingerson Scofield — “Stop believing in this Pretribulation Rapture lie and start preparing for what’s coming”

(audio) David Pawson: Will Christians Escape by Secret Rapture? — “Let’s get ready for trouble, realizing that when it comes, it’s only for a short while, and then He’s coming back” (Dispensationalism birthed this false doctrine that’s leading so many into false hope)

Why There is No Pre-Trib or Mid-Trib Rapture: Jesus will destroy the Lawless One at the same time he is gathering the saints to meet him in the air

Dumitru Duduman: The Russian Invasion of America — “It will start with the world calling for ‘peace, peace.’ Then there will be an internal revolution in America…. The government will be busy with internal problems. Then, from the oceans…” — The rapture will occur AFTER America is destroyed, as God destroys the enemies of Israel!

Dave Macpherson, author of “The Rapture Plot”: Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty — John Darby, Edward Irving, Cyrus Scofield, Tim Lahaye, John Walvoord, Jerry Falwell, Chuck Missler, Hal Lindsey, Jack van Impe, Grant Jeffrey …

In-studio with Infowarrior Alex Jones: Pastor Anderson Reveals Pre-Trib Rapture Deception — “Before the year 1830, EVERY denomination, every type of Christianity taught that the rapture took place AFTER the tribulation, because that’s what the Bible explicitly says.”

[7-minute video sneak peek] The RAPTURE will take place “AFTER THE TRIBULATION” — “Christians, today, are NOT BEING WARNED about the events they will face in the great tribulation. To learn the truth about the rapture, we must look within the pages of the Bible, itself”

Pastor Steven Anderson in Infowars studio: The Truth Left Behind — “The PRE-tribulation rapture is not based on ANY scripture.” The “Left Behind” series was fiction.

The Rapture: History and Influence in America — “Christians trade the message of Revelation as a call of discipleship in a fallen world for escapism.”

Corrie Ten Boom: Prepared for the Coming Tribulation

Warmongers Unite: Rapture Ready – The Christians United for Israel Tour with ‘Pastor’ John Hagee

John Hagee – Enforce UN Thought Crimes Law

Preemptive-Striker John Hagee Endorses 100-Years-in-Iraq John McCain

John Hagee: “Jesus Did Not Come To Earth To Be the Messiah”

Pastor Baldwin: Ron Paul’s Israel Problem [Evangelicals Led Astray?]

John Hagee calls for a preemptive strike on Iran

John Hagee: Unrepentant Heretic? — Today, churchgoers stand hand in hand with a Jewish people who would crucify Christ again if He walked their streets.

Alex Jones: The pre-trib rapture doctrine is a big, sickening, psyop, bringing US into tyranny! “Most of you are a bunch of torture loving, war loving people…” — Truthful commentary by a non-pastor

Mike Bickle’s (IHOP) prophetic dream: “What is coming is so much more intense than we imagine.” “We must experience manifestation of His majesty that makes us tremble and His kindness that moves us to repentance and servanthood.” “We will receive angelic assistance and great power…”

After America Went Down Music: Our Demise Theme [Barber: "Adagio for Strings"] / The Demons Rejoice Dance Mix [Dj Tiesto] ||| WWWIII ||| “Once saved always saved” + pre-tribulation rapture + old covenant law tithing + “Support Bush no matter what”/dis the peacemakers and Ron Paul = Doomsday! ||| Where were the Bonhoeffers and therefore the disciples of Christ?!!

Baruch: “Not only is DECEPTION of the church possible, it was PROPHESIED TO HAPPEN!” — Jesus said “IN THE LAST DAYS THE MAJORITY WILL BE DECEIVED, take heed that it doesn’t happen to you” — “FALSE TEACHERS are actually SPEAKING SPELLS with the words of their FALSE DOCTRINES!”

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?

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60 Comments »

  1. [Wow, not long after I saw the following web item, I ran into your great article! May the Lord bless you much for your much needed thoughts! Marilyn]

    The NEWEST Pretrib Calendar

    Hal (serial polygamist) Lindsey and other pretrib-rapture-trafficking and Mayan-Calendar-hugging hucksters deserve the following message: “2012 may be YOUR latest date. It isn’t MAYAN!” Actually, if it weren’t for the 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised pretribulation rapture bunco scheme, Hal might still be piloting a tugboat on the Mississippi. roly-poly Thomas Ice (Tim LaHaye’s No. 1 strong-arm enforcer) might still be in his tiny folding-chair church which shares its firewall with a Texas saloon, Jack Van Impe might still be a jazz band musician, Tim LaHaye might still be titillating California matrons with his “Christian” sex manual, Grant Jeffrey might still be taking care of figures up in Canada, Chuck Missler might still be in mysterious hush-hush stuff that rocket scientists don’t dare talk about, John Hagee might be making – and eating – world-record pizzas, and Jimmy (“Bye You” Rapture) Swaggart might still be flying on a Ferriday flatbed! To read more details about the eschatological British import that leading British scholarship never adopted – the import that’s created some American multi-millionaires – Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” (note LaHaye’s hypocrisy under “1992”), “Hal Lindsey’s Many Divorces,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers)” and “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun),” “LaHaye’s Temperament,” “Wily Jeffrey,” “Chuck Missler – Copyist,” “Open Letter to Todd Strandberg” and “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Humbug Huebner,” “Thieves’ Marketing,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts,” “Dolcino? Duh!” and “Scholars Weigh My Research.” Most of the above is written by journalist/historian Dave MacPherson who has focused on long-hidden pretrib rapture history for 35+ years. No one else has focused on it for 35 months or even 35 weeks. MacPherson has been a frequent radio talk show guest and he states that all of his royalties have always gone to a nonprofit group and not to any individual. His No. 1 book on all this is “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online, etc.). The amazing thing is how long it has taken the mainstream media to finally notice and expose this unbelievably groundless yet extremely lucrative theological hoax!

    Comment by Marilyn — March 8, 2009 @ 9:03 am | Reply

    • And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim. 2:24-26

      Whenever Christ returns, I think that He would prefer to see His children who are of one accord in the essentials of the historic Christian faith loving one another. I see, feel, hear NO love of God in your ranting comment. Where is the Love of God in your rantings? I will not even grace the content of your post with my comment because I am commanded not to strive but to admonish those of the Faith, with meekness and kindness. The complete opposite of what you have done here.

      Comment by Jimmy — May 16, 2011 @ 5:00 pm | Reply

      • So often this thinking attempts to put up a protective wall so that the truth isn’t considered. Instead of judging, why not demonstrate a meek response that actually considers the context. Sure there could be more gracious ways for the representation of the same argument, but if there was, would you actually consider a meek response? Your response isn’t meekness, its avoidance. So often it is suggested to agree to disagree, but many times by doing so we agree with sin, by turning a blind eye to it. I refuse to agree to disagree with wickedness. We must stand and call sin, sin! I often come across this type of response with the pretrib folk, more often than not just disagreeing with them can be offensive. Truth is offensive by nature. I find that this response is a ploy to avoid the truth. It is the avoidance of truth that brings about deception 2 Thess. 2 9-12. I admonish you to seek the truth and win others with you meek responses that actually consider the context, that you may win those who you oppose themselves. If it is as I suspect that you simply are avoiding the truth, I humbly suggest you repent from you wickedness and embrace the truth however much it may hurt.

        Comment by boldncourageous — January 6, 2014 @ 5:33 pm | Reply

  2. Your #3. We are NOT able to find one single instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, or the Apostle John made any statement to the effect that “the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years PRIOR to the beginning of the end-times’ tribulation period”. Isn’t that a bit strange if the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is the correct one?

    Here is the information you are looking for,

    Revelation 2:22 is the most definitive passage in the scripture documenting the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and giving description of that “escape” (Luke 21:36) being conditional leading to a partial “catching up” of the church.

    Revelation 2:22
    22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    Revelation 2:22
    22 Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (the members of the church, believers) that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    The deed that the members of the church of Thyatira are guilty is the sin of adultery against their bridegroom Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 11:1-3). The world is not engaged or “espoused” to Christ and therefore are in a constant state of fornication through unbelief, as is Jezebel. The members of the church are to be cast into The Great Tribulation, unless (except) they repent of their “deeds”. If they repent, the opposite of the recorded punishment will ensue. They will “escape” entrance into the Great Tribulation.

    All other passages in the scripture teaching or confirming the teachings of the Partial PreTrib Rapture are supportive of this one verse. They are scattered throughout the entirety of the New Testament. Most of them are documented in the book, The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained. / Escaping The Coming Storm.

    A thorough study of the Rapture of the Church in general or The Partial Rapture “Theory” specifically can not be completed without investigating the evidence found only within the pages of this publication.

    Published through Xulon Press
    Carried by all major book retailers,
    Amazon, Borders, Books-a-Million, Barnes and Noble, Target.

    The Rapture of the Bride of Christ is the next event scheduled inside the plan of God which was spoken into existence complete from beginning to end in a “moment” before time. With its occurrence the Church Age will come to its conclusion and the final chapter of the history of the world will begin with The Great Tribulation. All who have failed to heed the warnings clearly stated by the Word of God that would have pointed each to an escape of this gruesome period of history, will be engulfed by the horrors it will bring. Deceit, betrayal and perversion will be the norm. No one will be safe or can be trusted. Once entered, the only available exit will be through the passageway of physical death which will be so common as to not be a second thought on the mind of a twisted and bloodthirsty world.

    Rev. J. W. (Bro. Chip) White, Jr.
    Courtland Baptist Church
    P. O. BOX 550
    Queen City, Texas 75572

    Comment by Rev. J. W. White, Jr — April 13, 2009 @ 12:35 pm | Reply

    • It is true that there are words and phrases that stand out that that grab the pretrib doctrines attention concerning escape, but pleas check the context. For example: Luke 21:36, Jesus tells us to pray always that we may be worthy to escape all that is coming on the Earth… The pretribber notices the word escape and that’s the focus, but note the rest of the verse… PRAY ALWAYS that you may be WORTHY… If escape means rapture, and only those who are saved get raptured, what does worthiness or works have to do with salvation? And why are we being told to pray always that we might get raptured? Do we now have to continually be praying a mantra or sinners prayer so we can escape? Escape isn’t rapture in Luke 21:36 nor is it salvation!

      In fact the opposite effect of what the pretrib wants this verse to say comes out when you meditate on it. We come to an understanding that there is a lot coming that if we are to escape it will take a lot of prayer and getting our life cleaned up so that we are worthy. this verse actually proves the error of the pretrib doctrine. Psalm 91 expounds on how to escape.

      Comment by boldncourageous — January 6, 2014 @ 5:42 pm | Reply

  3. PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY

    by Dave MacPherson

    When I began my research in 1970 into the exact beginnings of the pretribulation rapture belief still held by many evangelicals, I assumed that the rapture debate involved only “godly scholars with honest differences.” The paper you are now reading reveals why I gave up that assumption many years ago. With this introduction-of-sorts in mind, let’s take a long look at the pervasive dishonesty throughout the history of the 179-year-old pretrib rapture theory:

    Mid-1820’s – German scholar Max Weremchuk’s work “John Nelson Darby” (1992) included what Benjamin Newton revealed about John Darby in the mid-1820’s during his pre-Brethren days as an Anglican clergyman:
    “J. N. Darby was a very subtle man. He had been a lawyer, or at least educated for the law. Once he wanted his Archbishop to pursue a certain course, when he (J.N.D.) was a curate in his diocese. He wrote a letter, therefore, saying he had been educated for the law, knew what the legal course would properly be; and then having written that clearly, he mystified the remainder of the letter both in word and in handwriting, and ended up by saying: You see, my Lord, such being the legal aspect of the case it would unquestionably be the best course for you to pursue, etc. And the Archbishop couldn’t make out the legal part, but rested on Darby’s word and did as he advised. Darby afterwards laughed over it, and indeed he showed a copy of the letter to Tregelles. This is not mentioned in the Archbishop’s biography, but in it is the fact that he spoke of Darby as ‘the most subtle man in my diocese.'”
    This reminds me of an 1834 letter by Darby which spoke of the “Lord’s coming.” Darby added, concerning this coming, that “the thoughts are new” and that during any teaching of it “it would not be well to have it so clear.” Darby’s deviousness here was his usage of a centuries-old term – “Lord’s coming” – to cover up his desire to sneak the new pretrib idea into existing posttrib groups in very low-profile ways!
    1830 – In the spring of 1830 a young Scottish lassie, Margaret Macdonald, came up with the novel notion of a catching up [rapture] of Spirit-filled “church” members before Antichrist’s “trial” [tribulation] of non-Spirit-filled “church” members – the first instance I’ve found of clear “pretrib” teaching (which was part of a partial rapture scheme). In Sep. 1830 “The Morning Watch” (a journal produced by London preacher Edward Irving and his “Irvingite” followers, some of whom had visited Margaret a few weeks earlier) began repeating her original thoughts and even her wording but gave her no credit – the first plagiarism I’ve found in pretrib history. Darby was still defending posttrib in Dec. 1830.
    Pretrib promoters have long known the significance of her main point: a rapture of “church” members BEFORE the revealing of Antichrist. Which is why John Walvoord quoted nothing in her revelation, why Thomas Ice habitually skips over her main point but quotes lines BEFORE and AFTER it, and why Hal Lindsey muddies up her main point so he can (falsely) assert that she was NOT a pretribber! (Google “X-Raying Margaret” for info about her.)
    NOTE: The development of the 1800’s is thoroughly documented in my book “The Rapture Plot.” You’ll learn that Darby wasn’t original on any chief aspect of dispensationalism (but plagiarized the Irvingites); that pretrib was initially based on only OT and NT symbols and not clear Scripture; that the symbols included the Jewish feasts, the two witnesses, and the man child – symbols adopted by Darby during most of his career; that Darby’s later reminiscences exaggerated his earliest pretrib development, and that today’s defenders such as Thomas Ice have further overstated what Darby overstated; that Irvingism didn’t need later reminiscences to “clarify” its own early pretrib development; that ancient hymns and even the writings of the Reformers were subtly revised to make it appear they had taught pretrib; and that after Darby’s death a clever revisionist quietly made many changes in early Irvingite and Brethren documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites (and their female inspiration!) and give it dishonestly to Darby! (Before continuing, Google the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site and read “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” – a sample of the current exciting internetism!)
    1920 – Charles Trumbull’s book “The Life Story of C. I. Scofield” told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield’s “The Incredible Scofield and His Book” (1988) and David Lutzweiler’s “DispenSinsationalism: C. I. Scofield’s Life and Errors” (2006), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred “D.D.” etc. etc.!
    1967 – Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon’s “The Origins of the Brethren” quoted Darby associate Lord Congleton who was “disgusted with…the falseness” of Darby’s accounts of things. Rowdon also quoted historian William Neatby who said that others felt that “the time-honoured method of single combat” was as good as anything “to elicit the truth” from Darby. (In other words, knock it out of him!)
    1972 – Tim LaHaye’s “The Beginning of the End” (1972) plagiarized Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
    1976 – Charles Ryrie”s “The Living End” (1976) plagiarized Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970) and “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
    1976 – After John Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976) brutally twisted Robert Gundry’s “The Church and the Tribulation” (1973), Gundry composed and circulated a 35-page open letter to Walvoord which repeatedly charged the Dallas Seminary president with “misrepresentation,” “misrepresentations” (and variations)!
    1981 – “The Fundamentalist Phenomenon” (1981) by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson heavily plagiarized George Dollar’s 1973 book “A History of Fundamentalism in America.”
    1984 – After a prof at Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God in Florida told me that the No. 2 man at the AG world headquarters in Missouri – Joseph Flower – had the label of posttrib, my wife and I had two hour-long chats with him. He verified what I had been told. But we were dumbstruck when he told us that although AG ministers are required to promote pretrib, privately they can believe any other rapture view! Flower said that his father, an AG co-founder, was also posttrib. We also learned while in Springfield that when the AG’s were organized in 1914, the initial group was divided between posttribs and pretribs – but that the pretribs shouted louder which resulted in that denomination officially adopting pretrib! (For details on this and other pretrib double-mindedness, Google “Pretrib Hypocrisy.”)
    1989 – Since 1989 Thomas Ice has referred to the “Mac-theory” (his reference to my research), giving the impression there’s no solid evidence that Macdonald was the real pretrib originator. But Ice carefully conceals the fact that no eminent church historian of the 1800’s – whether Plymouth Brethren or Irvingite – credited Darby with pretrib. Instead, they uniformly credited leading Irvingite sources, all of which upheld the Scottish lassie’s contribution! Moreover, I’m hardly the only modern scholar seeing significance in Irvingism’s territory. Others in recent years who have noted it, but who haven’t mined it as deeply as I have, include Fuller, Ladd, Bass, Rowdon, Sandeen, and Gundry.
    1989 – Greg Bahnsen and Kenneth Gentry produced evidence in 1989 that Lindsey’s book “The Road to Holocaust” (1989) plagiarized “Dominion Theology” (1988) by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice.
    1990 – David Jeremiah’s and C. C. Carlson’s “Escape the Coming Night” (1990) massively plagiarized Lindsey’s 1973 book “There’s A New World Coming.” (For more info, type in “Thieves’ Marketing” on MSN or Google.)
    1991 – Paul Lee Tan’s “A Pictorial Guide to Bible Prophecy” (1991) plagiarized large amounts of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
    1991 – Militant Darby defender R. A. Huebner claimed in 1991 to have found new evidence that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827 – three years before Macdonald. Halfway through his book Huebner suddenly admitted that his evidence could refer to something completely un-rapturesque. Even though Thomas Ice admitted to me that he knew that Huebner had “blown” his so-called evidence, prevaricator Ice continues to tell the world that Huebner has “positive evidence” that Darby was pretrib in 1827! Ice also conceals the fact that Darby, in his own 1827 paper, was looking for only “the restitution of all things” and “the times of refreshing” (Acts 3:19,21) – which Scofield doesn’t see fulfilled until AFTER a future tribulation!
    1992 – Tim LaHaye’s “No Fear of the Storm” (1992) plagiarized Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976).
    1992 – This was when the Los Angeles Times revealed that “The Magog Factor” (1992) by Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler was a monstrous plagiarism of Prof. Edwin Yamauchi’s scholarly 1982 work “Foes from the Northern Frontier.” Four months after this exposure, Lindsey and Missler stated they had stopped publishing and promoting their book. But in 1996 Dr. Yamauchi learned that the dishonest duo had issued a 1995 book called “The Magog Invasion” which still had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (If Lindsey and Missler ever need hernia operations, I predict that the doctors will tell them not to lift anything for a long time!)
    1994 – In 1996 it was revealed that Lindsey’s “Planet Earth – 2000 A.D. (1994) had an embarrassing amount of plagiarism of a Texe Marrs book titled “Mystery Mark of the New Age” (1988).
    1995 – My book “The Rapture Plot” reveals the dishonesty in Darby’s reprinted works. It’s often hard to tell who wrote the footnotes and when. It’s easy to believe that the notes, and also unsigned phrases inside brackets within the text, were a devious attempt by someone (Darby? his editor?) to portray a Darby far more developed in pretrib thinking than he actually had been at the time. I found that some of the “additives” had been taken from Darby’s much later works, when he was more developed, and placed next to or inside his earliest works! One footnote by Darby’s editor, attached to Darby’s 1830 paper, actually stated that “it was not worth while either suppressing or changing” anything in this work! If his editor wasn’t open to such dishonesty, how can we explain such a statement?
    Post-1995 – Thomas Ice’s article “Inventor of False Pre-Trib Rapture History” states that my book “The Rapture Plot” is “only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse….” And David Reagan in his article “The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture” repeats Ice’s falsehood by claiming that I have republished my first book “over the years under several different titles.”
    Although my book repeats a bit of the Macdonald origin of pretrib (for new readers), all of my books are packed with new material not found in my other works. For some clarification, “The Incredible Cover-Up” has photos of pertinent places in Ireland, Scotland, and England not found in my later books plus several chapters dealing with theological arguments; “The Great Rapture Hoax” quotes scholars throughout the Church Age, covers Scofield’s hidden side, a section on Powerscourt, the 1980 election, the Jupiter Effect, Gundry’s change, and more theological arguments; “The Rapture Plot” reveals for the first time the Great Evangelical Revisionism/Robbery and includes appendices on miscopying, plagiarism, etc.; and “The Three R’s” shows hypocritical evangelicals employing occultic beliefs they say they have long opposed!
    So Thomas Ice etc. are twisting truth when they claim I am only a revisionist. Do they really think that my publishers DON’T know what I’ve previously written?
    Re arguments, Google “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts” and also obtain “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (AuthorHouse, 2006) by media personality Joe Ortiz.
    1997 – For years Harvest House Publishers has owned and been republishing Lindsey’s book “There’s A New World Coming.” During the same time Lindsey has been peddling his reportedly “new” book “Apocalyse Code” (1997), much of which is word-for-word the same as the Harvest House book – and there’s no notice of “simultaneous publishing” in either book! Talk about pretrib greed!
    1997 – This is the year I discovered that more than 50 pages of Dallas Seminary professor Merrill Unger’s book “Beyond the Crystal Ball” (Moody Press, 1973) constituted a colossal plagiarism of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970). After Lindsey’s book came out, Unger had complained that Lindsey’s book had plagiarized his classroom lecture notes. It was evident that Unger felt that he too should cash in on his own lectures! (The detailed account of this Dallas Seminary dishonesty is revealed in my 1998 book “The Three R’s.”)
    1998 – Tim LaHaye’s “Understanding the Last Days” (1998) plagiarized Lindsey’s “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
    1999 – More than 200 pages (out of 396 pages) in Lindsey’s 1999 book “Vanished Into Thin Air” are virtually carbon copies of pages in his 1983 book “The Rapture” – with no “updated” or “revised” notice included! Lindsey has done the same nervy thing with several of his books, something that has allowed him to live in million-dollar-plus homes and drive cars like Ferraris! (See my Google articles “Deceiving and Being Deceived” and “Thieves’ Marketing” for further evidence of this notably pretrib vice.)
    2000 – A Jack Van Impe article “The Moment After” (2000) plagiarized Grant Jeffrey’s book “Final Warning” (1995).
    2001 – Since 2001 my web article “Walvoord’s Posttrib ‘Varieties’ – Plus” has been exposing his devious muddying up of posttrib waters. In some of his books he invented four “distinct” and “contradictory” posttrib divisions, claiming that they are either “classic” or “semiclassic” or “futurist” or “dispensational” – distinctions that disappear when analyzed! His “futurist” group holds to a literal future tribulation and a literal millennium but doesn’t embrace “any day” imminency. But his “dispensational” group has the same non-imminency! Moreover, tribulational futurism is found in every group except the first one, and he somehow admitted that a literal millennium is in all four groups! On the other hand, it’s the pretribs who consistently disagree with each other over their chief points and subpoints – but somehow end up agreeing that there will be a pretrib rapture! (See my chapter “A House Divided” in my book “The Incredible Cover-Up.”)
    2001 – Since my “Deceiving and Being Deceived” web item which exposed the claims for Pseudo-Ephraem” and “Morgan Edwards” as teachers of pretrib, there has been a piranha-like frenzy on the part of pretrib bodyguards and their duped groupies to “discover” almost anything before 1830 walking upright on two legs that seemed to have at least a remote hint of pretrib! (An exemplary poster boy for such pretrib practice is Grant Jeffrey. To get your money’s worth, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”)

    FINALLY: Don’t take my word for any of the above. Read my 300-page book “The Rapture Plot” which has a jillion more documented details on the long-hidden but now-revealed history of the dishonest, 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised-until-the-real-bad-stuff-happens pretribulation rapture fad. If this book of mine doesn’t “move” you, I will personally refund what you paid for it!

    (Just ran into the above web item! There is also a photographic version of it on the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site. Alida)

    Comment by Alida — May 3, 2009 @ 10:37 am | Reply

  4. Those who don’t believe in the pretrib or the rapture first needs to learn how to use exegesis which is the original meaning of what the author’s intentions in each book of the Bible. Second you need to learn hermeneutics which is the interpretation of the Biblical scriptures in today’s time. I humbly state to quit listening to others and do your own research.

    Comment by moriah — May 8, 2009 @ 6:04 pm | Reply

    • Moriah, I think you meant to say those who “do” believe in the pre-trib rapture need to quit listening to others and do their own research, right? Check out MidnightWatcher’s Blogspot and read through a few of the articles in the “Theology and Eschatology” section, particularly the “Not Appointed Unto Wrath” and “The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church” articles. I challenge anyone to refute them.

      Comment by ICA — November 16, 2011 @ 5:42 pm | Reply

  5. Moriah,

    Actually, the pre-trib rapture deception is minor compared to the who-goes-to-heaven deception. What does the Bible really say about who really goes to heaven? Most of the current teachings are based upon Paul’s introductions to his letters, and totally avoid the truth about what Jesus and the NT writers really say.

    If there somehow would be a pre-trib rapture, there would be far less driverless vehicles crashing on highways than is currently believed.

    Moriah, I invite you to check out my interpretation of the NT authors’ intentions in this piece: “Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way.”

    Who-goes-to-heaven is the main issue. And most of the current teachings violate hermeneutical principles all over the place. A pre-trib rapture wouldn’t benifit people unless they’re on the list of evacuees. And most aren’t, according to what the Bible really says.

    Although I don’t believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture, there is some basis for a “taking out into the wilderness.” But whether this is an actually relocation physically or just an escape spiritually and emotionally, I don’t know.

    The main thing I’m focusing on is being right with God and all people — ‘ONE’ happening. Then we can enter our rest (that the writer of Hebrews talks about) no matter what.

    “The goal is soul.” – Bono

    Not escape.

    Jeff Fenske : )
    OneCanHappen!!

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — May 9, 2009 @ 2:18 pm | Reply

    • I agree with you. I called myself “Christian” for many years…loved all the “fluff” of scripture. Just recently within the last year the Holy Spirit literally woke me up and I realized I WAS NOT going to be eternally with Jesus Christ in Heaven had I kept going down the path I was going. The path is wide and the gates are narror…I now know what that means. I thank Jesus Christ for the truth of his word and the Holy Spirit not giving up on me as I believe the time is near for the final 7 years if we are not already in them. I also DO NOT believe int he pretrib rapture. I specifically believe we are taken at the 6th seal…and then the Lord returns with us at the 7th trumpet. EVERYONE needs to study the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation intensely. we are taken at the last trump…( and not the one in Revelation called the 7th trumpet. I pray everyone wakes up those that call on the name of Jesus Christ that are being deceived byt he false teachings out there…much less that are going to churches where they are totally NOT SAYING A WORD about the time being near. We need to prepare first of all spirtually and make sure we are living and following the Lords commands ( even Satan believes in Jesus) ….just believing in him will NOT get you to heaven. God says to keep my commands. Then we need to prepare ourselves mentally what Christian WILL GO THRU…it is not a pretty picture. There will be many many many that will go thru horrible things if you stand for the name of Jesus in the time soon coming. You must prepare yourselves for this. WE WILL be tortured, imprisoned, starved,killed and everything else you can imagine so prepare to STAND FIRM TILL THE END.

      Comment by DEB — February 29, 2012 @ 11:25 am | Reply

  6. I did an in depth study to find what Scriptural evidence there is to support a pre-trib, a mid-trib, or a pre-wrath rapture, and found that all Biblical evidence points to there being only a post-trib. Read about it here: http://justinlessard.wordpress.com/2009/05/06/will-there-be-a-rapture/
    Please also share your comments. Thanks and God bless!

    Comment by justinlessard — May 11, 2009 @ 6:55 am | Reply

  7. Justin,

    I agree: “after the last trumpet (or ‘trump’).”

    Thanks for doing your study and commenting here.

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — May 11, 2009 @ 12:47 pm | Reply

  8. It doesn’t really matter, with eternity in mind, which is right or wrong, pre-trib or post-trib. We only have our faith in Christ and an eternity spent with our Savior. I get so tired of this argument dividing Christians who are supposed to be loving and supporting each other. I know many pre-trib beleivers who live for Christ on a daily basis, with Christ in their mind and hearts, yet they are accused of being deceived and being from Satan and part of the antichrist doctrine. Is this Christian? Is that what Christ wants of us?
    As for the person that wrote comment #1, what you wrote was nothing but hateful toward Christian men teaching what they feel is right. Even if they are wrong, does that make them unsaved? Does that give you the right to ridicule them? Be careful what you say of fellow beleivers. God loves us all the same, whether pre-trib or post-trib. Does he want us treating each other this way?
    The pre-tribbers that I know are open to the idea of going through the tribulation. If that’s God’s wil, so be it. And that’s the way I feel: If Christ comes to get me _ great! If not, and it is His will I go through the tribulation _ fine. I’ll do anything for my Savior. Even give my life, if that’s His will. Pre-tribbers aren’t cowards.
    It has been in my experience, that the post-tribbers are the most angry and judgmental about it. Why waste your time belittling and attacking people when the world is drawing ever closer to the tribulation? We have better things to be doing.

    Comment by rtj — May 13, 2009 @ 6:45 am | Reply

    • there is a false church and a church of God on this earth,the false church was estabished by satan does exactly what satan did to adam and eve–God gave them a simple instruction not to do something or they would die,satan came along and caused them to believe what God said cant be true and that they certainly wont die–the bible says that satan will be cast into the lake of fire,and,those who he decieved.–satan works only with the tools of decieving people to believe that Gods word isnt saying what it means-thats why true christians can easily see the deceptions[pre-trib rapture,once saved always saved,commandments abolished,denial of Gods sabbath and holy days,mark of the beast]anyone who cant see the plain truths of the bible are clearly living in the false church–Jesus refered to His church several times as “little flock” because He knew it would be small in truthful doctrine compared to the big churches today that teach everything but sound doctrine–In refering to the false church God said “come out of her my people”He said that they were His people because they want to know Him-but,He says come out of her because He knows they will be lost forever[spiritual death]if they keep believing lies,traditions,deceptions of men under satans influence.the way I see it,I tell people at times that there is no pre-trib-rapture and if they dont believe simple,plain,clear scriptures on Jesus return[when and how]then oh well–people settle for the comfortable beliefs–Ive been trying to tell people for years that just confessing Jesus does nothing but send a person to to hells fire to be burned up and destroyed–that if there is no transformation and turning from sin that………….well you know.

      Comment by tobylee bird — June 7, 2013 @ 6:37 pm | Reply

      • Yeah, I’ve been thinking lately that millions have been ‘saved’ without having been told they have to then obey Christ to be saved. And if they don’t repent their end will be worse than if they hadn’t been born-again in the first place.

        I probably mostly agree with you, but I don’t understand how you (or anyone else) can say “He says come out of her because He knows they will be lost forever[spiritual death]if they keep believing lies,traditions…”, while you include traditions from the old covenant, which are also part of the deception: “denial of Gods sabbath and holy days.”

        Jeff

        Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 8, 2013 @ 2:34 am | Reply

      • I do not believe in a pretrib rapture. The reason is this: Babies who live before the pretrib rapture will be taken into heaven when it occurs; however, babies born after the rapture will have to remain on earth. What is just and fair about that reasoning? For this reason, I believe in postribulational premillennialism like Pat Robertson or George Eldon Ladd who are both Baptists. I am a former Southern Baptist Deacon and a current United Methodist.

        Comment by Charles E. Miller, Jr. AB in German, Old Dominion University; MA in Religion, Liberty University — June 8, 2013 @ 5:15 pm | Reply

  9. Rtj and others,

    I’m the poster of this article.

    I appreciate your desire that we all treat each other with love and respect. Loving the Lord, our God, with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength, and our neighbors as ourselves is Christianity.

    But I disagree with you that this doctrine does not matter as far as eternity is concerned. For some, this may be true. But for many, these doctrines very much affect their behavior. And many ‘Christians’ use the pre-trib rapture doctrine and the once-saved-always-saved doctrine as an excuse to escape from responsibilities that God has called us to. Other doctrines are often factors as well.

    And many, in their lack of preparing for what’s likely coming, may not be able to spiritually survive. Many aren’t spiritually overcoming now, but think they are going to heaven anyway, because of the false doctrines they’re taught. See: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way

    I personally believe the number one cause for the fall of America is the fall of real Christianity. And the number one cause for the fall of real Christianity is widespread teaching of false doctrines that are deceiving the masses into thinking they are real, going-to-heaven Christians when they’re Biblically not.

    Luther didn’t get it, and Calvin didn’t get it (my posts under these categories show), and much of today’s Christianity is based upon their theories, which are largely not Biblical, even in some cases reverse-Christian.

    We need a reformation of the Reformation. False doctrines are dividing us, whereas true doctrines unite us.

    Jesus prayed that we would be ONE with each other and ONE in Him, just as He was and is ONE with the Father. When people accept as truth some of these doctrines of demons, it more often than not affects the way they think and act.

    I’m trying to identify these doctrines so many of us can experience real, Biblical Christianity together — finally — life in the Son — life really in Christ.

    Many teach today that a person can be ‘legally’ in Christ when in reality they aren’t. The Bible teaches no such thing. Nor does it teach that these same people will escape the tribulation. Many of these ‘Christians’ are disengaged from spiritual battles and are on ‘coast’ mode: “Why fight when we’re out on the first flight?”

    Some will stand up for what’s right anyway, but most pre-trib and OSAS believing ‘Christians’ aren’t truly living ‘in Christ,’ according to Romans 8 and etc.. Most aren’t abiding in the Vine. Most are in danger of being burned (John 15).

    Most have drunk the Kool Aid. And those who haven’t can get frustrated with those who have, not walking in forgiveness and longsuffering, therefore endangering their own salvation.

    We must be holy and endure to the end. It’s important that we re-read or even truly read for the first time what the Bible really says about these doctrines.

    The Bible prophesied that the deception would be great in the last days. Much of the doctrines that are mainstream in the American churches is what the Bible predicted would happen, but not what God wants to happen.

    We are warned that the deception would be great. And it is. We can either take the easy way and swim downstream with the deceptions, or we can stand up for what is right in the unique ways the Holy Spirit will lead us to do this.

    We all have different callings and different gifts. May we use our gifts to help each other truly be in Christ.

    It may be too late to save America, but we can have joy in the journey, strength from being in Christ and ONE with each other. These can be the best days of our lives, spiritually. And I believe that finding out what the Bible really says doctrinally is the number one key for real Christianity to happen in our midst. And that is largely what I am trying to do at ONEcanhappen.

    Paul said: “those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh.” We need to die so Christ can live through us. But many doctrines taught in ‘churches’ today encourage people to do the opposite.

    Doctrine does matter, big-time. I appreciate very much those who actively investigate what is true Christianity and those who desire to live it.

    May we figure it out and get there. I believe it will just take one church to teach and live in Biblical reality, truly being ‘in Christ.’ We’ll be ONE, and then Jesus said the world will know — like a permanent Asbury Revival — when God showed up big-time!

    May we be ONE, together, right with God and right with each other.

    God bless!!!

    Jeff Fenske : )

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — May 13, 2009 @ 4:58 pm | Reply

  10. I appreciate your reply, Jeff and I couldn’t agree more. I very much agree that American and the world has settled into a compfy Christianity which is the apostacy we were told would happen in the end times. I agree that many people are Christian only in name without having a real spiritual connection with Christ. The only thing I dispute is the statement that most pre-tribbers aren’t truly living in Christ. I think this is quite a jump to say people that are awaiting every day the appearance of their Savior and drawing close to Him, I think it’s quite judgmental to say that they aren’t Christian, are kool-aid drinkers and beleivers in doctrines of demons. You are entitled to your opinion, but I don’t think beleiving in a pre-trib rapture automatically makes you unsaved. I would never say because you don’t beleive in the rapture that you are unsaved. I know many pre-tribbers and post-tribbers and there are wonderful Christians on both sides. The one thing I do notice is that pre-tribbers are fine if they are wrong. Like I said before, if I am to go through the tribulation my Savior will get me through it. That’s how all pre-trib beleivers I know feel. Does that sound to you that they are listening to demons and not true Christians?
    I could argue with you about the Scriptures to support a pre-trib rapture, but it would do no good, just like your arguements probably couldn’t convince me that I beleive in a “doctrine of demons.” We are going to beleive what we want to beleive, but attacking each other does not please our Father. I feel in my spirit that He could come soon, just as you probably feel in yours that He is not. Nevertheless, I will live my life every day like I could come face to face with my Savior. How could that be a bad thing?
    A very good website is: http://christianitynotchurchianity.blogspot.com
    The writer is in tune with the apostacy going on, but he explains things much better than I can. Jesus is coming soon, whether we argue if it’s now or 7 years from now. People need to be told the truth, not a pretty picture of Christianity. Let’s spend our energy reaching out to them instead of bickering amongst ourselves.

    Comment by rtj — May 14, 2009 @ 6:15 am | Reply

  11. Rtj,

    Much of what you said I said I didn’t quite say. Please read carefully.

    And by the way, most post-trib believers have drunk the Kool Aid too, especially when it comes to what they have accepted about what the Bible says about who goes to heaven. It’s also amazing to me that most evangelicals supported President Bush’s multiple reverse-Christian policies. Many evangelicals wish evil on people from their hearts. Many think old covenant tithing is Biblical instead of being led by the Holy Spirit. Many don’t even hear God’s voice, and think that’s okay.

    The main problem in the church is not this pre-trib rapture theory; though, I believe this is a factor for many. Notice I said “for many,” just as I qualified much of what I said above.

    Please notice, I focus mainly on other doctrines on this site. The rapture isn’t even a separate category. My focus is mostly on other doctrines that I consider far more serious. But I think they are all responsible to a degree for what has happened to the ‘church’ in America, and what has happened to America itself.

    Jeff

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — May 14, 2009 @ 9:59 pm | Reply

  12. You may want to take a look here

    Comment by John — July 21, 2009 @ 12:43 pm | Reply

  13. [the following web item greeted me lately & I hereby submit it - Brad]

    FAMOUS RAPTURE WATCHERS – Addendum

    by Dave MacPherson

    (The statements in my “Famous Rapture Watchers” web article appeared in my 1983 book “The Great Rapture Hoax” and quoted only past leaders. Here are the other leaders who were quoted in that original printing.)

    Oswald J. Smith: “…I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist…” (Tribulation or Rapture – Which?, p. 2).

    Paul B. Smith: “You are perfectly free to quote me as believing rather emphatically in the post-tribulation teaching of the Bible” (letter dated June 9, 1976).

    S. I. McMillen: “…Christians will suffer in the Great Tribulation” (Discern These Times, p. 55).

    Norman F. Douty: “…all of the evidence of history runs one way – in favor of Post-tribulationism” (Has Christ’s Return Two Stages?, p. 113).

    Leonard Ravenhill: “There is a cowardly Christianity which…still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture – perhaps today – to catch us away from coming tribulation” (Sodom Had No Bible, p. 94).

    William Hendriksen: “…the one and only second coming of Christ to judgment” (Israel in Prophecy, p. 29).

    Loraine Boettner: “Hence we conclude that nowhere in Scripture does it teach a secret or pre-tribulation Rapture” (The Millennium, p. 168).

    J. Sidlow Baxter: “…believers of the last days (there is only one small part of the total Church on earth at any given moment) will be on earth during the so-called ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (Explore the Book, Vol. 6, p. 345).

    Merrill C. Tenney: “There is no convincing reason why the seer’s being ‘in the Spirit’ and being called into heaven [Revelation 4:1-2] typifies the rapture of the church…” (Interpreting Revelation, p. 141).

    James R. Graham: “…there is not a line of the N.T. that declares a pre-tribulation rapture, so its advocates are compelled to read it into certain indeterminate texts…” (Watchman, What of the Night?, p. 79).

    Ralph Earle: “The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture seems first to have been emphasized widely about 100 years ago by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren” (Behold, I Come, p. 74).

    Clarence B. Bass: “…I most strongly believe dispensationalism to be a departure from the historic faith…” (Backgrounds to Dispensationalism, p. 155).

    William C. Thomas: “The return of Jesus Christ, described by parousia, revelation, and epiphany, is one single, glorious, triumphant event for which we all wait with great eagerness!” (The Blessed Hope in the Thessalonian Epistles of Paul, p. 42).

    Harold J. Ockenga: “No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the ‘coming of Christ’ and the ‘day of the Lord.’ It is one ‘day of the Lord Jesus Christ’ ” (Christian Life, February, 1955).

    Duane Edward Spencer: “Paul makes it very clear that the Church will pass through the Great Tribulation” (“Rapture-Tribulation” cassette).

    J. C. Maris: “Nowhere the Bible teaches that the Church of Jesus Christ is heading for world dominion. On the contrary – there will be no place for her, save in ‘the wilderness,’ where God will take care of her (Rev. 12:13-17)” (I.C.C.C. leaflet “The Danger of the Ecumenical Movement,” p. 2).

    F. F. Bruce: “To meet the Lord [I Thessalonians 4:17]…on the final stage of…[Christ's] journey…to the earth…” (New Bible Commentary: Revised, p. 1159).

    G. Christian Weiss: “Some people say that this ['gospel of the kingdom' in Matthew 24:14] is not the gospel of grace but is a special aspect of the gospel to be preached some time in the future. But there is nothing in the context to indicate this” (“Back to the Bible” broadcast, February 9, 1976).

    Pat Brooks: “Soon we, in the Body of Christ, will be confronted by millions of people disillusioned by such false teaching [Pre-Tribism]” (Hear, O Israel, p. 186).

    Herman Hoeksema: “…the time of Antichrist, when days so terrible are still to arrive for the church…” (Behold, He Cometh!, p. 131).

    Ray Summers: “Because they [Philadelphia] have been faithful, he promises his sustaining grace in the tribulation…” (Worthy Is the Lamb, p. 123).

    George E. Ladd: “[Pretribulationism] may be guilty of the positive danger of leaving the Church unprepared for tribulation when Antichrist appears…” (The Blessed Hope, p. 164).

    Peter Beyerhaus: “The Christian Church on earth [will face] the final, almost superhuman test of being confronted with the apocalyptical temptation by Antichrist” (Christianity Today, April 13, 1973).

    Leon Morris: “The early Christians…looked for the Christ to come as Judge” (Apocalyptic, p. 84).

    Dale Moody: “There is not a passage in the New Testament to support Scofield. The call to John to ‘come up hither’ has reference to mystical ecstasy, not to a pretribulation rapture” (Spirit of the Living God, p. 203).

    John R. W. Stott: “He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it” (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p. 104).

    G. R. Beasley-Murray: “…the woman, i.e., the Church…flees for refuge into the wilderness [Revelation 12:14]…” (The New Bible Commentary, p. 1184).

    Bernard L. Ramm: “…as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia” (Leo Eddleman’s Last Things, p. 41).

    J. Barton Payne: “…the twentieth century has indeed witnessed a progressively rising revolt against pre-tribulationism” (The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p. 38).

    Robert H. Gundry: “Divine wrath does not blanket the entire seventieth week…but concentrates at the close” (The Church and the Tribulation, p. 63).

    C. S. Lovett: “Frankly I favor a post-trib rapture…I no longer teach Christians that they will NOT have to go through the tribulation” (PC, January, 1974).

    Walter R. Martin: “Walter Martin finally said…’Yes, I’m a post-trib’ ” (Lovett’s PC, December, 1976).

    Jay Adams: “Today’s trend is…from pre- to posttribulationism” (The Time Is at Hand, p. 2).

    Jim McKeever: “Nowhere do the Scriptures say that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation” (Christians Will Go Through the Tribulation, p. 55).

    Arthur Katz: “I think it fair to tell you that I do not subscribe to the happy and convenient theology which says that God’s people are going to be raptured and lifted up when a time of tribulation and trial comes” (Reality, p. 8).

    Billy Graham: “Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known” (Sam Shoemaker’s Under New Management, p. 72).

    W. J. Grier: “The Scofield Bible makes a rather desperate effort…it tries to get in the ‘rapture’ of the saints before the appearing of Antichrist” (The Momentous Event, p. 58).

    Pat Robertson: “Jesus Christ is going to come back to earth again to deliver Israel and at the same time to rapture His Church; it’s going to be one moment, but it’s going to be a glorious time” (“700 Club” telecast, May 14, 1975).

    Ben Kinchlow: “Any wrath [during the Tribulation] that comes upon us – any difficulty – will not be induced by God, but it’ll be like the people are saying, ‘The cause of our problems are those Christians in our midst; we need to get rid of them’ ” (“700 Club” telecast, August 28, 1979).

    Daniel P. Fuller: “It is thus concluded that Dispensationalism fails to pass the test of an adequate system of Biblical Interpretation” (The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism, p. 369).

    Corrie ten Boom: “The Bible prophesies that the time will come when we cannot buy or sell, unless we bear the sign of the Antichrist…” (Tramp for the Lord, p. 187).

    [In light of II Tim. 3:14 which says that we can't know too much about Bible teachers (Dave MacVersion), I invite you to read my article "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" which can be found on the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site.]

    Comment by Brad — August 15, 2009 @ 12:34 pm | Reply

  14. Hebrews 9:28
    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    How does this passage agree with,,,

    Revelation 1:7
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — September 5, 2009 @ 5:33 am | Reply

  15. Mr. White,

    I’m not sure where you’re coming from with this. Are you pro-pre-trib rapture or not?

    Rev. 1:7 is clearly talking about Christ’s second coming: “every eye shall see him … and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.”

    Heb. 9:28 is more vague. It’s unclear what is being talked about.

    And since you mention Hebrews 9, it’s important to look at Hebrews 10 to understand what may be the least understood point in the whole rapture concept. If there is a pre-trib rapture, only those who aren’t willfully sinning Galatians-5:19-21 sins will be raptured out of here:

    26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But remember the former days, in which, after you were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings; 33 partly, being exposed to both reproaches and oppressions; and partly, becoming partakers with those who were treated so. 34 For you both had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an enduring one in the heavens. 35 Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 37 “In a very little while, He who comes will come, and will not wait. 38 But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul.

    Most born-again ‘Christians’ who are trusting in the pre-trib rapture wouldn’t be going anyway if it did happen, which I prove in: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way, because they’re not abiding in Christ sufficiently enough to stay clean.

    Rev. 3:1-5 is also very clear on this.

    1 “And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: “He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Why aren’t these texts known by most ‘Christians?’ Why are so many so cocky; though, they wouldn’t even go if the pre-trib rapture did come? Christians aren’t automatically dressed in white. We don’t even have a congregation in America that has a reputation for being alive. Look at what was going to happen to these people who did.

    The key point is that we must abide in Him. This should be the focus. If escape-the-tribulation insurance does exist, it’s only for those who are right with God and their neighbors anyway.

    Only those people who’s names have not been removed from the Book of Life would go.

    The pre-trib rapture is a false hope for most, because most are not Rev-3/Gal-5/Rom-8/John-15/Mt-5 qualified. Most guys are disqualified, for example, by willfully lusting. Maybe women too.

    And what about the hate in people’s hearts. Most ‘Christians’ aren’t Galatians-5 going.

    The focus in pulpits today should be on overcoming, not escaping, otherwise that when they see His absolute holiness they will be cut to the heart in off-the-charts fear. “It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

    The writer to Hebrews wrote this to ‘Christians.’

    Are we ready if He would come right now? Are we pure enough to not cower when we see absolute holiness? Are we right with our neighbors and right with God in our hearts?

    May we overcome so that when we see Him we will have joy and confidence to enter, “having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.”

    When will we get our act together?

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — September 7, 2009 @ 12:04 am | Reply

  16. I agree with many of your conclusions; however, this page and many of the contributors take on an angry — even hateful tone that is disturbing. We must first agree that we don’t have to score 100% on any theology exam in order to get into Heaven. The requirements are spelled out clearly in John 3:18. Both Romans 14 and Titus 3 warn us against getting into useless arguments. Hal Lindsey makes the mistake in “Vanished” of speculating that people who don’t share his view might not even be saved — some of the contributors here take on the same tone of judgment (Matthew 7:1-2). By casting people in categories by giving them names (like pre-Trib’ers) intended to divide them from the rest of the body of Christ, we are sewing division … exactly what the Lord tells us not to do.

    Comment by Pastor Ken — September 12, 2009 @ 12:03 pm | Reply

  17. Ken,

    Thanks for commenting. Here is my response.

    The “body of Christ” is divided between those who are Christ’s (those who are truly abiding in Christ, “who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit” – Rom. 8:1 & 4) and those who are born-again but aren’t really Christ’s because they still fit into the first Gal.-5 list (the works-of-the-flesh list: those whom “will not inherit the kingdom of heaven”).

    “Those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh,” including hate; otherwise, according to Paul in Galatians 5, they are not going to heaven.

    The “body of Christ” is divided already. Jesus wants to unite us. And this will only happen when we are abiding in Him and right with each other. And doctrines like the pre-trib rapture (along with OSAS, tithing verses being led by the Holy Spirit, etc.) encourage many to think they don’t have to abide in Christ and be right with each other to go to heaven.

    These are not “useless arguments,” like you say. It is my view that when we get these doctrines right we’ll have unity. Jesus heart-cry for us in John 17 will happen — may we be ‘ONE.’ As it is now, we’re not even close. Willful sin (Hb. 10:26-39) has destroyed the church, and it is my belief that these doctrines encourage willful sin. We must abide in the Son.

    Regarding who goes to heaven, you say:

    “We must first agree that we don’t have to score 100% on any theology exam in order to get into Heaven. The requirements are spelled out clearly in John 3:18.”

    Actually, those who consider themselves teachers (who will get a stricter judgment) must be “apt to teach,” according to Paul’s elders’ qualifications. So there is something to be said for being able to understand doctrine first before stepping up to the pulpit. And I don’t know of even one seminary that teaches what the Bible really teaches about who goes to heaven. So they certainly are not qualified to say who is “able to teach.” God is, and He will judge those according to His exam. Those who weren’t “apt to teach” but taught anyway…. Yikes if they’ve led little ones (and big ones) astray!!!

    And you mention John 3:18 to be the end-all regarding who goes to heaven, but let’s read further, beyond the verses that are popularly taught. We know the deception in the last days will be great, and this is one of the main ways it’s being done, through omission — the same way they do it on FOX News, by the way.

    John 3:

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” […]

    36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

    Reading the entire text, it is clear that the word, ‘believe’ in John is clearly more than mere acceptance of a concept. It’s important to see how an author uses a word and not jump to conclusions even before he’s done speaking.

    A similar mistake is made by theologians when their salvation doctrine is determined mainly from Paul’s introductory remarks, ignoring the specifics he gets to later. Which is what Luther did.

    “Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God,” Paul said. “The Comforter will lead us into all truth,” Jesus said. The correct doctrine is all there in plain sight, but the demonic deception is so great that we can only see it if we are being Holy-Spirit-led, willing to see what is really there even if it disagrees with what we have been taught or maybe even feel. For if they’re truly doctrines of demons, religious spirits can actually make born-again ‘Christians’ strongly feel like something is so when it is not.

    Regarding what John taught about who goes to heaven, we can also look at what he says elsewhere, for example, chapter 15:

    5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

    And please consider what John says in Rev. 3:1-5: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way article. This is a text that doesn’t get airplay but is so ultra-clear. According to this text, what is the true state of the American church?

    False doctrine has clearly led us astray. And biblical doctrine can bring true revival, real unity (life in the Son), which will be true Christianity.

    What we have now is mostly some legal mumbo jumbo — that we’re legally righteous though we’re not living righteously. That’s what seminaries teach, but what did Jesus teach, Paul, John, etc.?

    Let us be ONE! Jesus’ way is the only way.

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — September 12, 2009 @ 11:41 pm | Reply

  18. Brethren C.I.Scofield is really the one who infected Christianity with his Jewish Fables that comes from the satanic Talmud.Jews control just about everything in America especially the Federal Reserve from whence comes our Federal Reserve notes we the people work for then pay the Jews interest on the money we make through income taxes.

    Dispensationalism as taught by every major denomination on so-called Christian tv only prospers because its the doctrines that will bring in the new world order under the AntiChrist while the deceived elect are waiting to be rescued from the coming tribulation which they will not be prepared for because they believed the lie of it that will damn billions to hell because they refused the truth {See 2nd Thess chapter 2 v 9-12}

    If something is not true its a lie and where will those people go who use the Bible to teach things it dont?They are without the tree of life {Rev 22:14-15}

    It is more serious than just minor dis-agreements over doctrine.

    Read this about Mr C.I.Scofield whom`s system most preachers teach while the lost sheep believe.It is an eternal mistake to accept and follow these NWO Talmudic heresies.

    Read this Schocker.

    We now enter the phase of the Illuminati and the Great Awakening,

    Cyrus Scofield and the subversion of modern Christianity

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “And no marvel for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” — Rabbi Saul of Tarsus – 1 Corinthians 11:14-15.

    The key to understanding this is in the Hebrew Prophecies themselves. It is made absolutely clear that the Jews are first to achieve dominion over the nations of the earth, and then Zion will be proclaimed over the whole.

    “And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and even upon her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defense.” — Isaiah 4:5, King James Version

    A defense against what? If this is to be the kingdom of Christ Jesus, what need for a defense, Christian? And yet you teach that Zion is Jesus’ earthly kingdom because this is what your church elders had been taught by Cyrus Scofield, editor of your Bible concordance. He went to great efforts to convince you that Isaiah and Micah’s “mountain of the Lord’s house” is supposed to mean the millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ. That is a lie; his argument is a fraud, yet you can’t see it.

    Jesus’ kingdom needs no pillar of fire and smoke to protect it. The word “Zion”, in Hebrew, means “Sepulchre”. Solomon’s Temple was built on Mount Moriah, not on Mount Zion. Mount Zion lies to the south of the Old City, separated by a narrow valley, and to the southwest of the Mount of Olives. Mount Zion is also known as Golgotha – the “Hill of Skulls” – or Calvary.

    Zion and Calvary are one and the same. Jesus was crucified on Zion! The Christian confusing of Zion with the Rebuilding of the Second Temple is a mistake, the result of bad geography and/or a metaphorically bizarre Kabbalistic joke.

    Is the Sepulchre to be the place of Redemption? [Freemasonry! ]

    Was Jesus not crucified on the same spot where Abraham had built an altar to sacrifice his son, Isaac? What is the relationship between Jesus and Zion?

    Who taught us to use that word?

    Can you see how we have been deceived by our own Christian churches, taught to worship our doom in the Antichrist?

    The text of Isaiah 2:1 clearly states “The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.” Are you a Jew? Will you be allowed to worship in the Third Temple when it is built? Methinks not!

    What was Cyrus Scofield trying to hide from us?

    “The Tetragrammaton appears to have its origin in the phrase found in Exodus 3:14, “I am that I am”. Before this it was known as the Shem ha-meforash, the seventy-two syllabled name of God, made up of 216 letters.
    The source of the Shem ha-meforash, according to tradition, are verses 19-21 of Exodus xiv, each of the three verses containing seventy-two Hebrew letters. The letters of verse 19 were written down in separated form and in correct order; the letters of verse 20, also in separated form, were written down in reverse order, and the letters of verse 21 were written down in correct order.

    Reading from above down, one obtains seventy-two three-letter names, all of which combine to make one. To these three-lettered names were then added either AL or IH to form the names of the seventy-two angels of Jacob’s ladder.” Charles Ponce Kabbalah

    The type of permutation described above is called Temura, and it is a common Kabbalist device. The three verses of Exodus 14:19-21 that constitute the Shem ha-meforash happen to describe how a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night appeared just prior to Moses’ leading the Hapiru across the Red Sea into the desert. This is a cipher, so that wherever a “pillar of fire by night” or “cloud by day” is mentioned in the Bible, one may substitute the Shem ha-meforash to obtain the proper Kabbalistic interpretation.

    The Kabbalists know that the Shem ha-meforash – the Seventy-two Syllabled Name of God, the Seventy-two Angels of Jacob’s Ladder, the seventy-two Sanhedrin – are also the seventy-two proper names of daemons, who are sealed in the Key of Solomon. This Key is used by the Practical Kabbalist to construct talismans by which he may summon, or conjure, these beings. To the Speculative Kabbalist the names represent the seventy-two dominions, principalities, elementals, powers and paths over which he seeks mastery.

    Thus, from a Kabbalistic perspective, the verse of Isaiah 4:5 is stating that after the Mountain of Zion has been constructed, the deity shall assign seventy-two daemons – an infernal Sanhedrin, if you will – to watch over Zion and protect it.

    And that, my dear reader, is exactly what Cyrus Scofield called the Kingdom of Jesus! That, Christian, is what your ministers taught you is Jesus’ Second Coming! Ye worship ye know not what!

    And who was Cyrus Scofield?

    As a young con-artist in Kansas after the Civil War, he met up with John J. Ingalls, an aging Jewish lawyer who had been sent to Atchison by the “Secret Six” some thirty years before to work the Abolitionist cause. Pulling strings both in Kansas and with his compatriots back east, Ingalls assisted Scofield in gaining admission to the Bar, and procured his appointment as Federal Attorney for Kansas. Ingalls and Scofield became partners in a railroad scam which led to Cyrus serving time for criminal forgery.

    While he was in prison, Scofield began studying the philosophy of John Darby, pioneer of the Plymouth Brethren movement and the “any moment now” rapture doctrine.

    Upon his release from prison, Scofield deserted his first wife, Leonteen Carry Scofield, and his two daughters Abigail and Helen, and he took as his mistress a young girl from the St. Louis Flower Mission. He later abandoned her for Helen van Ward, whom he eventually married. Following his Illuminati connections to New York, he settled in at the Lotus Club, which he listed as his residence for the next twenty years. It was here that he presented his ideas for a new Christian Bible concordance, and was taken under the wing of Samuel Untermeyer, who later became chairman of the American Jewish Committee, president of the American League of Jewish Patriots, and chairman of the Non-sectarian Anti-Nazi League.

    Untermeyer introduced Scofield to numerous Zionist and socialist leaders, including Samuel Gompers, Fiorello LaGuardia, Abraham Straus, Bernard Baruch and Jacob Schiff. These were the people who financed Scofield’s research trips to Oxford and arranged the publication and distribution of his concordance.

    It is impossible to overstate the influence of Cyrus Scofield on twentieth-century Christian beliefs. The Scofield Bible is the standard reference work in virtually all Christian ministries and divinity schools. It is singularly responsible for the Christian belief that the Hebrew Prophecies describe the kingdom of Jesus’ Second Coming, and not the Zionist vision of a man-made New World Order.

    And it is precisely because Christians persist in this belief that they remain blind to the reality of Zion.

    Scofield served as the agent by which the Zionists paralyzed Christianity, while they prepared America for our final conquest.

    Comment by A Christian — September 21, 2009 @ 4:02 pm | Reply

  19. Why is there so much hate in your words? All Christians should worry about Jesus right now. Christians should not be competing with each other. We should unite on our belief of Jesus Christ and that He is at the door right now. Non of us know everything. You might be wrong. Since we all agree on the times we are living, why don’t we worry about what’s really important: Spread God’s love, love one another, win more souls to Jesus, teach people the greatness of God, spread God’s word- Jesus! All the possible things we can do instead of competing on who knows better. Let’s just keep our eyes on Jesus.

    God Bless You

    Comment by Anonymous — December 2, 2009 @ 1:32 pm | Reply

  20. The notion that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture specifically and the Rapture in general were an ivention of the early 1800’s originating with little Miss McDonald is simply false. Anyone continuing to believe this today in any respect is simply lacking knowledge of history or willfully ignorant of the facts wishing not to acknowledge the truth of the past. In essence, individuals who would like to change history to fit their own beliefs.

    “Rapture”, in the context of eschatology, is an English word derived from the Latin rapio, (or variant spelling rapere) “caught up” as found in the Vulgate rendering of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    The Oxford English Dictionary provides two pages describing the history of usage of the word in English back to as early as the 1400’s. From the 17th century onwards, the word is attested as rapture with similar senses to the older form rapt. The OED provides the etymology as from Latin rapere: to seize, especially abduct; it likens the words capture and rapture. Of particular note are the various distinctions involving either literal or figurative transport of body or emotions to heaven or from one place to another on earth.

    a 1400: Þe visions of seynt poul wan he was rapt into paradys. — Vernon manuscript in Old English Miscellany 223
    1412-20: In this wyse were the brethren twayne To heauen rapt, as thes poetes fayne. — John Lydgate, Chronicle of Troy 2:14
    1432-50: Helyas was rapte in this tyme. — Ranulf Higden, Polychronicon, tr. John Trevisa, Rolls Series 3:25
    1526: Whan he was rapt & taken vp in to the thyrde heuen. — William Bond, Pilgrim of Perfection, (Wynkyn de Worde, 1531): 25
    1610: To this place … were Enoch, Elias and Paul rapt up fore their deaths. — John Guillim, A Display of Heraldry 3:2
    1667: Rapt in a Chariot drawn by fiery Steeds. — John Milton, Paradise Lost 3:522
    1866: He was rapt up on high and saw S. Peter. — Charles Kingsley, Hereward the Wake 1:12

    Doctrinal history
    The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritan father and son Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus’ Second Coming. The concept of a pre-tribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.

    Further back,,
    The Shepherd of Hermes is one such ancient document.

    We will acknowledge first that much of what is recorded in these texts does not agree with the teachings of the scripture. That fact alone establishes the complete set of manuscripts of no doctrinal value. But, setting aside that detail for the moment in order to analyze the contents of these documents, we learn one of the records makes mention of a vision the “shepherd” had of a giant raging beast. This animal made an attempt to charge the shepherd presumably to cause him great harm. The shepherd, however was able to escape by relying on God for protection.

    The next vision he encounters is that of a beautiful maiden, identified by the shepherd himself as the Church. She in turn identifies the creature as an illustration of the Great Tribulation to come, and tells him he escaped it by putting his full trust in God. She then gives him the responsibility of informing all other believers they can do the same, but only if they too put their full trust in the Lord.

    This is a very brief look and oversimplification of the content of those manuscripts. But since they have been accepted to have been written in the second century, it is concrete proof that the “concept” of the Rapture in general (as referring to an escape from a future time of Great Tribulation) and conditions connected to participating in that specific escape existed outside of Biblical text, but inside the body of the Church, to within approximately one hundred years of the physical death of Jesus Christ.

    Even if the doctrine is in error, it was a belief of a portion of the membership of the Church, regardless of how few, documented to as early as the second century and there exists earlier evidence. Anyone choosing to deny the clear content of these articles, is blind wishing to remain so. You can honestly choose to believe and thereby continue to teach the doctrine to be in error, but you cannot deny that it was believed by a portion of the early Church. It existed, that is a fact.

    There are numerous websites on the Internet that continue to expound the myth that the teaching of the Rapture was not even conceived of until the late 19th or early 20th century. Anyone denying the existence of this doctrine by even the smallest percentage of the early Church should be held suspect concerning any and all doctrines that are put forth by that person or organization.

    Further, further back that even that,,,
    The Post-Tribulationist overlooks completely the purpose of 2nd Thessalonians.
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    The day of Christ mentioned here in verse two is not the Rapture. Nor is Paul informing the Church of Thessalonica in this particular passage that they had not missed the coming of Lord Jesus that they had been waiting for, as instructed. They had been informed by false teachers infiltrating the church that the day of Christ was at hand. In other words it was nigh, very close and that they should be preparing for it. What’s wrong with this picture, you might ask?

    The problem was, the false teachers in question were Post-Tribulationists, and were teaching the day of Christos or the day of the Messiah (his coming in power and great glory at the end of The Great Tribulation Period) was at hand. Therefore, by the church’s understanding from the teachings of Paul in his first letter, they concluded they were inside the Great Tribulation Period and had missed “the gathering” of verse one as well as the teachings of Paul in 1st Thess. 4:16-18 (or the Rapture, that they knew would proceed the Great Tribulation).

    The Thessalonians were the first “recorded” Partial Rapturists, although their were others. It was a common teaching of the day. If the teachings they were being exposed to were accurate, they had been “left behind” when the Lord had come to gather his bride. This can be easily seen in verse one by the manner in which Paul introduces the explanation to come.

    Paul :
    Now we beseech you, brethren, (the believers of the church, and by the way, the lost were not being addressed, they are not brethren)

    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (the Glorious Appearing of which they understood Paul to teach would end the Great Tribulation, but were now being instructed was closing in on the world)

    and by our gathering together unto him, (the gathering of the Bride, which in consideration to Paul‘s earlier teachings of 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 concerning our being “caught up together“, they were now being informed by false teachers they had missed).

    The mention of both comings in reverse order (much like Luke’s description of a more complex sequence in chapter 17:28-36 of his Gospel) is repeated in the following verses. They were confused, and it was Paul’s intention to re-educate them drawing from the lessons of his first letter, as well as his prior visit.

    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Let no man deceive you by any means: (self explanatory)

    for that day (the day of Christ, Christos, The day of The Messiah or conquering King of Israel)

    shall not come, (self explanatory)

    except (until)

    there come a falling away (of which some modern Christians consider to be believers falling away from the truth of the gospel or faithfulness to the Lord, still others believe it could be an obscure mention of the Rapture itself)

    first (self explanatory),

    and that man of sin (the anti-christ)

    be revealed, (self explanatory)

    the son of perdition (further identifying the anti-christ).

    The key to understanding this passage is in the correct identification of the English phrase “falling way“, translated from the Greek word apostasia.

    One, but only one, of the contextual meanings inside the definition is “a departure”. That reference inside the definition has prompted some Pre-Tribulationists to entertain the possibility that the proper translation is just that. Literally a departure, meaning the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Bride. After all, such an interpretation would agree with their timing of the doctrine.

    However, accepting the translation “a departure” at face value and inferring it to be referring directly to the “catching up” of the Bride at the time of the Rapture is a selection by the individual of the portion of the definition that appeals to them based on their current beliefs. The actual definition is as follows.

    apostasia – the feminine form of the same, (in the neutral, apostasion) – defection (or departure) from the truth (the state of) “apostasy” falling away, to forsake.

    So, within the definition we do have an understanding of a departure being conveyed, but only in reference to a defection or forsaking of, the truth. The structure of the sentence itself, nor the definition of the word in the original Greek, make claim inside the context of the passage to a departure as some Pre-Tribulationists suggest. This view must first be inferred, then in turn interpreted as such by the reader. That being the case, it would be more likely that the traditional belief of the church experiencing a departure from the truth or the occurrence of a falling away from the faith just before the Rapture, would be correct. That is, if it were not for another little known definitionary fact.

    apostasia – the feminine form of the same, (in the neutral, apostasion)

    “apostasia” is the feminine form of its counterpart “apostasion” which is the neutral of the same. Namely, the same subject matter. In the feminine it retains its own definitions of defection, departure, falling away, or forsake, but only within the subject matter of its neutral counterpart, establishing the context of the passage. The neutral form possesses the same attributes, but in a manner active to the subject matter it “specifically” defines.

    apostasion – neutral – something separative, specifically divorce, – (writing of) divorcement.

    With the word apostasia being by definition “the same as” apostasion in feminine form, the action being discussed in this passage is “in the feminine” a falling away, the state of apostasy, to forsake, a defection from the “Truth” (in subject, the coming of the Lord), but in a setting of divorce defined by its counterpart, apostasion.

    The only state that could be being described in relation to this passage is the Partial Rapture’s teaching of the unfaithful and disobedient members of the church being divorced by their Bridegroom the Lord Jesus Christ at the time he comes for his faithful Bride. That would cause the majority of the Church of God to be “Left Behind” at the time of the Rapture, to enter into and endure (and to be martyred inside) the Great Tribulation Period.

    So, the “falling away” is speaking of the Coming of the Lord, but is the record of his rejection of the portion of the church who is in violation of its marriage vows, and committing adultery against its Bridegroom.

    Paul is teaching them that just as they understood the Rapture of the Bride (or catching up) will proceed the Glorious Appearing, the revealing of the anti-christ and the beginning of The Great Tribulation itself, it will unfortunately also result in the divorce of the unfaithful as well. He is actually confirming the teaching of The Partial Rapture as valid, but reassures them those who remain obedient to the Lord will not be included in the rejection.

    The largest majority of the modern church feels, (And I was actually told this next statement by an obvious opponent of these teachings) “That is the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The scripture doesn’t say anything even remotely similar to that anywhere. You would have to torture a passage of scripture to the point of absurdity to get it to “confess” to such a thing.”

    Oh, Really ? !!

    Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    Keep in mind, adultery can only be committed against ones own spouse. The individuals being addressed by Jesus are espoused (or engaged) to Christ. 2nd Corinthians 11:1-3.

    I do not know how long I sat trying to write a final paragraph to emphasis the teachings that have been presented here. You know, put the final touches on an article that would really illustrate the dangers the Lord Jesus Christ himself warned us of in Luke 21:34-36.

    Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and [the] cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    But Revelation 2:22, in perfect harmony with the balance of the scripture, says it all.

    The Dave MacPherson PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY claim and,,,
    The Thief in the Night ministries Pre-Trib Liars claim,,,

    My only true concern here is to explain that an individual can not be perpetrating a deception or be a liar if there is not any intended or deliberate deception involved in the message being conveyed. An individual may be wrong, but they can not be a deciever or a liar if they truly believe what they are teaching. One has to “know” that what they are teaching is not the truth, and continue teaching it despite that knowledge.

    I am not a liar, or a deceiver. 99.99% of all Pre-Trib Rapture teachers are not liars or deceivers. (I am sure there is somebody in it for the money, what little there is in it, so I allot that theoretical group of individuals, however many there are of them, .01%.)

    Rev. J. W. (Bro. Chip) White, Jr.
    revjwwhitejr@aol.com
    Author : The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm
    partialrapture.net
    Pastor :Courtland Baptist Church
    P. O. BOX 550
    Queen City, Texas 75572

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — December 3, 2009 @ 3:38 am | Reply

  21. Hebrews 9:28
    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    How does this passage agree with,,,

    Revelation 1:7
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — September 5, 2009 @ 5:33 am

    ***Mr. White,

    ***I’m not sure where you’re coming from with this. Are you pro-pre-trib rapture or not?

    ***Rev. 1:7 is clearly talking about Christ’s second coming: “every eye shall see him …and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.”

    ***Heb. 9:28 is more vague. It’s unclear what is being talked about.

    REPLY

    Heb 9:28 is not vague. And, I am a believer in the Conditional (or Partial) Rapture.

    The fundamental teaching that the word Rapture conveys can be found in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 translated from the original Greek into King James English as “caught up”, which is derived from the Latin word “rapere” meaning to seize (sometimes by force) or to snatch away.

    1st Thessalonians 4:17
    17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    But the two words “second” and “coming” are not found together in scripture to describe the return of the Lord making the expression “second coming” itself unscriptural when referring to the return of Jesus.

    That is not to say there will be no second coming. There most certainly will be. But we must first find it in scripture under another term. That will be, “Hebrews 9:28″. The only instance in the entirety of the scripture (that I am aware of) when and where a numerical value is placed within the teaching of a reference to the return of our Lord.

    When I teach on Hebrews 9:28, I always begin with the preceding verse, Hebrews 9:27. This allows me to point out a substantial misquote leading to a minor misuse of this passage by the Church.

    Christen/dumb or Churchianity (as I call them) says, “It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.” This is not a false statement. It is emphatically, most literally the truth. However it is a significant misquote and unfortunate misuse of this passage.

    Hebrews 9:27 is actually setting us up for and pointing us to Hebrews 9:28. Together they state, (paraphrased) “And as it is appointed for men once (numerical one) to die and after this (their physical death) the judgment, So Christ (Jesus) was once (numerical one) offered to bare the sins of many, and unto them that look for him will he appear “the second time” (numerical two) without sin unto salvation (the result of his second appearance).

    Just as sure as it is true you will die and face God for judgment, Jesus came once (which was the first time) and he will return (which will be the next time), which is referred to by this passage as “the second time”.

    This is the only verse in the scripture that directly identifies itself as referring to the second time the Lord Jesus will appear. This is the next time or “second time” Jesus will make an appearance into this physical world.

    The Word of God, for those who will listen, teaches us,

    Hebrews 9:27-28
    27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    The traditional Second Coming of Christ is generally accepted to occur at the end of the Great Tribulation Period. In turn, The Great Tribulation Period, for those who believe in such a time, is said to be a seven year period of near total turmoil separated into roughly two equal segments of three and one half years. We will proceed upon that assumed premise.

    If you believe in any shape, form or fashion that the Bible is the Word of God, the “second coming” of Jesus Christ must be taken as a genuine future event from the time of its documentation. And since we have no record of it occurring from the time of its documentation until the present, we can safely assume it remains a future event. Can we agree on this? (Stay with me now).

    Post-Tribulationists and Pre-Tribulationists should both be in agreement with this concept. The question that remains and demands to be answered is, when will the moment we are “caught up” take place? Yes, it is as simple as asking the scripture a question such as this, and allowing it to answer for itself. However, the answer that reveals itself from the Word of God is going to step on a few denominational toes. I do not apologize.

    QUESTION :
    When will we be caught up to meet Jesus in the air ?

    ANSWER :
    1. When Jesus returns.
    Can we agree on this?

    2. When Jesus returns and appears the next time.
    Can we agree on this?

    3. The next time Jesus appears will be the “second time” Jesus appears.
    Can we agree on this?

    At this juncture I am forced to repeat myself. There is only one passage in the whole of God’s Word (to my knowledge) which attaches any numerical value (much less the specific numerical “two”) within its text and without any question refers to a coming of the Lord thereby positively identifying itself as the “second time” he will appear. It is, of course Hebrews 9:28, and once again the answer is as sure as death and judgment. Hebrews 9:27.

    Hebrews 9:27-28
    27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Hebrews 9:28 does not confirm the Rapture, because it does not mention being “caught up”, from whence the word Rapture was derived. It does however provide us with the numerical value which determines its location in the order of Jesus’ appearances and verifies this record as his second inside that succession. In addition, it confirms the primary aspect of the Rapture teaching, which is also the other most controversial subject the Church can not agree on.

    If you ask the scripture, “who is Jesus going to appear to when he appears the second time”? Taking the Word of God at face value the scripture clearly answers, “unto them that look for him”. No one has to accept this phrase to be significant inside the context of the verse, but there is no denying that is what it says. I prefer to believe the Word of God as it is written. You may believe what you wish.

    I might take this opportunity to remind all my readers that regardless of what we (you or I) wish or convince ourselves to be true, our personal preferences will not change what is made by God the events that will shape our future and will inevitably become fact. Each of us will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for everything done in the physical.

    The appearance of Jesus that is most commonly referred to, has him coming with/or/in the clouds of heaven, in/or/with great power and great glory (Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:24-26 and Luke 21:25-27).

    Matthew 24:29-30
    29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 13:24-26
    24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    26. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Luke 21:25-27
    25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26. Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    These passages paired together in context suggest they speak of the same coming as it is also recorded in Revelation 1:7.

    Revelation 1:7
    7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    This appearance, that is so obviously the glorious appearing (every eye shall see him) undoubtedly takes place at the end of The Great Tribulation Period (after the tribulation of those days). But, these narratives do not record the numerical value identifying any of them as the second coming, nor do they agree with the description of Hebrews 9:28 that does (unto them that look for him shall he appear “the second time”).

    The writer of Hebrews records clearly that he will appear to those who are looking for him and defines that appearance as the second time. These two criteria are then associated with the return of Jesus Christ in our future, due to the fact it has not yet occurred. Nowhere else in scripture are we given these two pieces of information attached to a single passage that is referring to an appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Since the passage of Hebrews is so dissimilar than the text of Matthew, Mark and Luke, the differences in their descriptions suggest there will be two separate events, both of which involve an appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Rapture, (the second time) appearing only to the select few who are looking for his return which will initiate the Great Tribulation Period. Then the traditional Second Coming, when the entire population of the world will see and witness his triumphant glorious appearing which will end The Great Tribulation Period.

    Also, if you think about it, how fitting it is for those two events to occur at just those particular times. In the book of Revelation, which is dealing directly with Jesus’ teachings on and description of The Great Tribulation, he repeatedly says of himself, “I am the beginning and the end.”

    But, since this “theory” is derived from the assumption that the Rapture is in fact a biblical teaching from a predetermined Pre-Tribulation perspective, we need scriptural corroboration in order to accept it as truth. Is there a passage of scripture that would help us confirm this “interpretation” of two separate comings of the Lord ? I believe there is, and as it happens, Jesus himself is again the speaker.

    Luke 17:20-22
    20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
    22. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    Jesus turns to his disciples, with the subject of the coming of the Kingdom of God still the topic, and makes reference to the days of the Son of man, making the two subjects synonymous. But when he does so, he mentions the days in the plural, and then a time that will come when the disciples will desire to see one of them.

    “One of the days of the Son of man” is a direct indication of more than one, confirmed by the rest of the scripture in its descriptions as two, beginning and ending the time known as The Great Tribulation Period. And again, it is fitting that the two appearances of the Lord Jesus Christ should take place at just those times. For,

    Revelation 1:8
    8. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Rev. J. W. (Bro. Chip) White, Jr.
    revjwwhitejr@aol.com
    Author : The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm
    partialrapture.net
    Pastor :Courtland Baptist Church
    P. O. BOX 550
    Queen City, Texas 75572

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — December 4, 2009 @ 5:18 am | Reply

  22. Mr. Fenske,, Jeff
    Thank you for your response. And for pointing out far more information than I have time to address here.

    I am not familiar with the wording and version of the Bible which you quote from, but it is an example of the neglect that appears in many modern “translations”. Most of which, due to this neglect, should be classified as paraphrased versions.

    Hebrews 10:35 Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. (??)

    The King James (although I am not a KJV only-ist, far from it)
    Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

    The word “recompence” or recompense, is omitted from the version from which you quote. That omission removes one very important teaching contained inside the passage of the KJV. (Do not add to or take from the Word, all know we are told such by the Word itself.)

    Strong’s 3405 – misthapodosia – mis-thap-od-os-ee-ah; from 3406; requital (good or bad): – recompence of reward.

    The lack of receiving a reward once earned is indeed contained inside the message of the passage you quote but is ommitted in teaching by the missing word. There will be many such loss of rewards among the members of the true Church of God. However, I do not regard an individual being excluded from the Rapture as a lose of reward as many of my Pre-Tribulational brothers and sisters teach that I do. True, it could be classified as such, but I believe that an unfortunate and false illustration.

    Jesus is not coming back for the Church at the Rapture, he is returning to gather his Bride for to transfer, transport or translate her back to the Fathers house, New Jerusalem.

    John 14:1- Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    The Bride is encased inside the Church. The majority of the true Church of God is currently committing adultery against their BrideGroom Jesus Christ and will be divorced at the time the Rapture occurs.

    2 Corinthians 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    Paul’s very fear was, as he states in the next verse,,

    3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    The modern church has been beguiled, and stands corrupted in its ranks today.

    Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    The reason it appears that the scripture teaches the Church will go through the Great Tribulation is because most of what we call the Church today will. I REPEAT. MOST OF THE “CHURCH” WILL BE EXCLUDED FROM THE RAPTURE. This accounts for the validity of some of the teachings of Post-Tribulationism. After the majority of the Church is “Left Behind” for not repenting of the sin of adultery, they will enter the Great Tribulation and become the first members of what we call the Tribulation Saints. This can be seen by illustration in the letters to the seven churches Jesus dictated to John inside the portion addressed to the church of Sardis.

    Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

    The lost of the world do not have garments to defile. And when an “espousal” (wedding) garment is given to a new believer by God upon salvation it is clean and white, and we are responsible for keeping it undefiled. The tribulation saints of the book of Revelation are first seen under the alter, where they are told to rest a little while until their fellow servants and their brethren, (two classes of tribulation saint, one class was saved before entering the great tribulation, the other accepted salvation after the Rapture) are killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Then, they are seen resurrected in heaven standing before the throne, at which time one of the elders has a conversation with John concerning the tribulation saints.

    Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Again, the robe of a saint is white and clean upon reception of it from God. But,, these robes had to be washed during the Great Tribulation (confirming the presence of non-raptured saints inside the Great Tribulation) since they had been soiled before the event of the Rapture. Most of the robes of the church of Sardis were defiled, since that portion of the letter mentions that only a few members had not defiled their garments. The mention of the few who had not defiled their garments confirms the presence in the church of the many who had. Defile your garment during the Church Age and you will enter the Great Tribulation by way of being excluded from the Rapture. If a believer attaches him or herself to the things of this world, you are putting the ways of this world between you and your Lord. Jesus himself warned against such practices, and there are grave consequences (literally) for doing so.

    Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    I am only teaching what I believe the Spirit has enlightened me of the Word to say. It and only it through the Spirit is our guide. I will stand before my Christ and give account for everything I have taught in the past and will teach in the future, but I refuse to teach anything but what the Word appears to say. This is what I will believe and continue to teach for the balance of my physical life because of the plain text reading of the Word. Someone or anyone telling me I am misinterpreting God’s Word, quite frankly don’t make it so. I am going to believe what it says, not what someone or anyone tells me it is supposed to mean.

    There is an escape from the Great Tribulation. Jesus said it. If there is no escape, why did he mention one inside the Olivet Discourse, of which is the description given to us in the three gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke? (Also, the gospel of John does not record the Olivet Discourse, but the book of Revelation of which he penned mirrors the Olivet Discourse in detailed form. Coincidence? I think not.) But Luke also records you must be “accounted” worthy. Not “be” worthy,, none of us are worthy of escaping damnation in hell let alone the Great Tribulation, but we must be “accounted” worthy by Jesus, due to our obedience to him and the Father through the Spirit.

    I might add that I personally believe (unfortunately) that the Church will not awaken to these teachings before the Rapture. There is no record in the scripture of a “mass exodus” if you will. The doctrine I teach will be at least ignored, at best condemned (as it and I already have been).

    Why do I continue to teach it at considerable cost to myself and loss of respect? Because from your perspective, this is what I “believe”.
    From my own perspective, that the rest of the believing world will never accept, I know it. Since it is the truth (from my perspective) I can do nothing else.

    Rev. J. W. (Bro. Chip) White, Jr. revjwwhitejr@aol.com
    Author : The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm
    partialrapture.net
    Pastor : Courtland Baptist Church
    P. O. BOX 550
    Queen City, Texas 75572

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — December 10, 2009 @ 3:43 pm | Reply

  23. Reply to Mr. Jeff Fenske.
    Per your comments of,,

    Mr. White,
    I’m not sure where you’re coming from with this. Are you pro-pre-trib rapture or not?

    ((I am a believer in what is called “The Partial Rapture”, although early in my ministry I referred to it as “The Conditional Rapture” having never heard of the partial rapture teachings.))

    Rev. 1:7 is clearly talking about Christ’s second coming: “every eye shall see him … and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.”
    Heb. 9:28 is more vague. It’s unclear what is being talked about.

    ((Answered in a previous post.))

    And since you mention Hebrews 9, it’s important to look at Hebrews 10 to understand what may be the least understood point in the whole rapture concept. If there is a pre-trib rapture, only those who aren’t willfully sinning Galatians-5:19-21 sins will be raptured out of here:
    26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But remember the former days, in which, after you were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings; 33 partly, being exposed to both reproaches and oppressions; and partly, becoming partakers with those who were treated so. 34 For you both had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an enduring one in the heavens. 35 Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 37 “In a very little while, He who comes will come, and will not wait. 38 But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul.
    Most born-again ‘Christians’ who are trusting in the pre-trib rapture wouldn’t be going anyway if it did happen, which I prove in: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way, because they’re not abiding in Christ sufficiently enough to stay clean.

    ((This is true except for the fact the wording of your title could suggest that if a “believer” is not abiding in Christ sufficiently, they could also reach a point where you consider them unsaved, or could lose their salvation, if I am not mistaken concerning the title. That is not possible. Although there will be very few believers included in the Rapture, all who are excluded will retain their relationship to the Father as a child of God. Albeit, they are not a part of The Bride.))

    Rev. 3:1-5 is also very clear on this.
    1 “And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: “He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    Why aren’t these texts known by most ‘Christians?’

    ((Because most people tend to believe what they are taught. It is more convenient than learning the truth for themselves.))

    Why are so many so cocky; though, they wouldn’t even go if the pre-trib rapture did come? Christians aren’t automatically dressed in white. We don’t even have a congregation in America that has a reputation for being alive. Look at what was going to happen to these people who did.

    ((The Church as a majority is truly deceived, if not merely asleep at it’s spiritual wheel.))

    The key point is that we must abide in Him.

    ((Absolutely, walk in the spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Most of the church is feeding themselves with the things of this world and not on the Spirit of God and Christ. Much of the church is even attending services on Sunday (or Saturday) but for the most part are enduring it because they feel it is their duty, or they are just playing church thinking they have done their fair share. A couple of hours spent in “obligation to the Lord”, then its back out into the world to play.))

    This should be the focus. If escape-the-tribulation insurance does exist, it’s only for those who are right with God and their neighbors anyway.
    Only those people who’s names have not been removed from the Book of Life would go.

    ((Only those who are right with The Father through The Spirit, in the name of their BrideGroom Jesus Christ will go.))

    The pre-trib rapture is a false hope for most, because most are not Rev-3/Gal-5/Rom-8/John-15/Mt-5 qualified. Most guys are disqualified, for example, by willfully lusting. Maybe women too.

    (((Women too, that are tied to the World. Lust of any kind, not just the obvious.)))

    And what about the hate in people’s hearts. Most ‘Christians’ aren’t Galatians-5 going.

    ((If,, your not right with your brother, your not right with your Heavenly Father.))

    The focus in pulpits today should be on overcoming, not escaping,

    ((Escaping the horrors of the Great Tribulation to come is tied directly to “overcoming” (although I refrain from using that terminology in my book.) Other use it too much and not quite accurately.))

    otherwise that when they see His absolute holiness they will be cut to the heart in off-the-charts fear. “It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
    The writer to Hebrews wrote this to ‘Christians.’

    ((The book of Hebrews was written by a Hebrew to Hebrew converts to Christianity. Yes to believers but not to the Church as a whole, although it is applicable in teaching to the whole. But yes, believers. Christians.))

    Are we ready if He would come right now? Are we pure enough to not cower when we see absolute holiness? Are we right with our neighbors and right with God in our hearts?

    ((As it was on Paul’s mind until almost the last day of his life, so it stays with me constantly. I pray to be ready, and stay in a continual state of prayer. One gauge is the one given to us by John in the last Chapter of Revelation itself. EVEN SO COME, LORD JESUS. Most believers can not truthfully utter that prayer. They have too much left to do or say or see in this physical and are not ready for the Lord to come. That is sad.
    One the other hand, in view of our discussion, it is also true that Johns cry to the Lord can only be spoken by those that believe in the Rapture. All others can not make claim to that cry. Johns prayer, after seeing the glories of the next life to come, the Lord Jesus, The Bride, The Throne of God, and New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven,, was in anticipation of his arrival. But to a Mid-Trib or pre-wrath believer, if the Great Tribulation began today, the second arrival of Jesus is at least 3 ½ years away. All post-tribbers will have to wait the full seven years of the Great Tribulation. Not so with Pre-Tribbers, we cry along side John,,
    Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    Not,,, even so, start the Great Tribulation so we can get it over with, and you can come.))

    May we overcome so that when we see Him we will have joy and confidence to enter, “having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.”
    When will we get our act together?
    Jeff Fenske

    ((As a whole, I do not believe the church will. I truly believe “from that perspective“ my preaching and teaching is in vain. Although, I am doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do whether I personally see any good come from it or not. Through obedience, [not works] but obedience, I pray I am “accounted worthy” when the Lord comes.))

    Rev. J. W. (Bro. Chip) White, Jr. revjwwhitejr@aol.com , partialrapture.net
    Pastor : Courtland Baptist Church
    P. O. BOX 550
    Queen City, Texas 75572

    Author : The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm
    Published by Xulon Press, xulonpress.com

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — December 11, 2009 @ 2:53 pm | Reply

  24. [What an interesting blog here that I found! I also found this web article that has to do with the MacPherson you mentioned. Very fascinating, yes. I also found that Miss Macdonald was a (pretrib) partial rapturist too.]

    EDWARD IRVING IS UNNERVING !

    by Dave MacPherson

    All of my books since 1973 have stated that Rev. Edward Irving and his followers (Irvingites) – as well as Margaret Macdonald – taught a pretribulation rapture before John Darby did.
    Margaret’s 117-line pretrib “revelation” account (which, by the way, contains 59 Bible verses or parts of verses – about one in every other line) was admittedly not as detailed as the many articles in “The Morning Watch” (Irvingite journal) which from 1829 to 1833 clearly and extensively portrayed a pretrib rapture. Naturally my Darby-exalting critics gang up on Margaret so that they won’t have to face up to overwhelming evidence that the Irvingites did in fact precede Darby!
    (While I’m at it – I wish now that I had never used terms like Margaret’s “revelation” or “vision” even though others have. I should have referred only to her “view” or “Scriptural interpretation.” If I had done so, my opponents wouldn’t have had an excuse to associate “occult” or “witch” or “demon” with her totally Biblical discussion while playing the current rapture debate “game of gossip”!)
    Scofield and Ironside are among the Darby defenders who have boldly concluded, minus evidence, that pretrib rapturism never existed in Irvingite circles.
    Even Ernest Sandeen’s “The Roots of Fundamentalism” (p. 64f) asserted that Irving and his followers didn’t teach anything resembling a Darbyesque secret, pretrib rapture. (His conclusion was based on only two unrelated (!) prophetic utterances which were spoken many months after pretrib was first clearly taught in Irving’s journal in Sep. 1830!) J. Barton Payne responded to Sandeen by writing that “MacPherson has once and for all overthrown Ernest Sandeen’s assertions that the Irvingites never ‘advocated any doctrine resembling the secret rapture’ and that to connect J. N. Darby and early dispensationalism with Irving’s church is ‘a groundless and pernicious charge’….For serious students of the history of dispensationalism the study of MacPherson’s discoveries has become a must.” (Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, Winter, 1974)
    R. A. Huebner, a militant member of the Darbyist Plymouth Brethren, added his own name to the Irvingism-bashing list and even talked Walvoord, Ryrie, LaHaye and some other pretrib leaders into joining it. In his 1973 book Huebner actually stated: “The Irvingites (1828-1834) never held the pretribulation rapture or any ‘any-moment’ views.” His 1991 book repeated this by declaring that “the Irvingite system was a complex” that can be found “in posttribulational writers.”
    But the champion Irvingism-basher, who isn’t bashful, is Thomas Ice whose Darby-shielding darts are multiplied and repeated on the internet, world without end. He makes sure that readers of his “When Did J. N. Darby Discover the Rapture?” piece will discover his repetition that “Irving never held to pretribulationism.” In his “Myths of the Origin of Pretribulationism – Part II” he states that “One of Dave McPherson’s strangest claims is that Edward Irving and the Irvingites taught a pre-trib rapture.” And he even speaks disparagingly of “two British theologians” (Mark Patterson and Andrew Walker) who have written that “it is incontrovertible that Irving held to a pretribulation doctrine in a form that is developed and remarkably similar to contemporary dispensational views.” (!)
    My book “The Rapture Plot” (available online) includes many quotes from Irvingites proving that they taught a pretrib rapture as well as pretribulationally-correct imminence. Here are just a few examples from several issues of “The Morning Watch”:
    “Philadelphia” is described as worthy Christians who will be raptured before “the great tribulation” (TMW, Sep. 1830, p. 510)
    “…the great tribulation from which those dead in Christ, and those who shall then be alive and looking for him, shall be exempted, by being caught up to meet the Lord in the air….” (TMW, June 1831, p. 284)
    Walvoord’s, LaHaye’s, and Ice’s “any-momentness” is clearly seen in this Irvingite journal which stated: “…we miss the true object of faith and hope in the coming of the Lord, not only when we overleap it altogether, but when we interpose any screen whatever; when we look for any event of persecution or tribulation, for any combination of kings, any gathering of people, any manifestation of Antichrist.” (TMW, Dec. 1831, p. 253)
    One writer spoke of “the translation for the living…of which we may daily expect the accomplishment….” He added: “During this most horrible time of the reign of the last Antichrist, the risen and translated saints shall be with Christ….” (TMW, Mar. 1832, pp. 12-14)
    John Tudor, TMW editor, said that “some of these elect ones shall…be left in the great tribulation…after the translation of the saints….” He added that there is “nothing further to expect before the actual coming….” (TMW, Sep. 1832, pp. 11-12)
    “the literal time of 1260 days…does not commence till the moment of the translation of the saints….” (TMW, Sep. 1832, p. 48)
    It should be pointed out that during pretrib dispensationalism’s earliest development, there were those who quickly changed from the prevailing posttrib historicism to pretrib futurism, some who changed later on, and some who never changed. Naturally Darby-guardsmen such as Huebner and Ice have selectively focused on historicist Irvingites and purposely covered up pretrib futurists among the same British group to make it appear to their trusting readers that the Irvingites were totally pretrib-deficient!
    My first paper on Biblical prophecy was written in 1968. If I could have known beforehand that Darby protectors would either ignore, smear, or pseudo-scholarly skip over Margaret’s main point (a rapture before Antichrist’s revealing) and deviously quote lines only before and after it (what Ice does repeatedly), I would have focused on the incredible quality and quantity of the output of the innovative Irvingites – and brought in Margaret only as the one they claimed as their inspiration.
    Even William Kelly, Darby’s editor, knew that for 60 years evangelicalism had credited Irvingism, and not Darbyism, with pretribism. Which is why Kelly (while noting “the early prophesyings and tongues in Scotland” but adding that “we may pass these over”) focused on Irvingite writings, and not Margaret’s, in a lengthy series (1889-1890) in his own journal. Readers of “The Rapture Plot” know that Kelly, in Ice-like fashion, made so many dishonest changes while analyzing Irvingism in a supposedly fair and balanced way that evangelicalism, unable to examine hard-to-locate Irvingite writings, eventually accepted Kelly’s revisionism, the goal of which was to project Darby as the pretrib rapture originator as well as the “father of dispensationalism” – and we know how well Kelly was successful!
    I have focused on pretrib rapture beginnings for 40 years and have offered $1000 if anyone can show where I have ever dishonestly concealed or changed anything in any important rapture-related document. Unlike my opponents, my book royalties have always gone not to any individual but to a nonprofit corporation which has never paid any salary to anyone. While you’re wondering if you should obtain my 300-page book “The Rapture Plot,” I invite you to read my many internet articles including “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “Humbug Huebner,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers)” and “Thomas Ice – Hired Gun,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”

    Comment by Karl Meyer-Haus — December 20, 2009 @ 5:29 pm | Reply

  25. Wow, what a great blog! When I first came to Christ in the early 90’s and started attending a Church afterwards (yes, I came to Christ NOT in a church setting! :)), they taught pre-trib. Well, while watching tv (I devoured all things “Christian” I could then), there was a preacher who was slamming pre-trib. Hmmm, well, me being the “I’ll prove you wrong” person that I am, started devouring the Word of God alongside my trusty Strong’s concordance. I studies 4-5 hours a day. The result? I became a Post toasty (a pet name one of my pre-trib friends gave to me).

    Immediately I set out to dialogue about this online and eventually ended up at Rapture Ready and posted there for many years before being “booted”, not for my rapture dialogues(but that’s another story). What I will say is this: many people who hold to pre-trib (and I have some dear friends who do) are loving, kind people. However, some(more than a few) I met on RR were some of the nastiest, cutting people I have ever had the displeasure of dialoguing with. It is a great threat to some to have people negate the pre-trib rapture with MANY scriptures as well as historical evidence that this is a “new” doctrine. Some will scream at you that you are trying to take away their “blessed hope”. Isn’t JESUS is our blessed Hope………….not the timing of His coming? Seeing such responses made me realize just how dangerous this doctrine is.

    When I read Eze 13, it makes me think of the pre-trib doctrine and the disappointments/disheartenment God’s people will face who trusted in a pre-trib rapture and one never comes. God desires for us to be equipped to handle ANYTHING and everything that He allows into our lives. He does not want us to think we will “escape” trials and then be emotionally/spiritually overcome when those trials come our way.

    This interesting things for me is this: The Lord used the rapture issue I studied to prepare me for another very controversial study He would send me on a few years later. When He opened my eyes to the falseness in the church regarding His coming, He opened my eyes to the fact that there are other issues in the church which are not right either…………and many professing believers are at odds with His Word. This other area is divorce/remarriage. I did not seek out to study this issue either (as it affects my family in a HUGE way, as it does many families in America today). However, as with the rapture issue, this was burning in me……….I believe a hunger to know GOD’s TRUTH no matter the cost—a hunger placed there by God.

    What I found shocked me even more than when I saw the deception of the pre-trib rapture. What I found in God’s Word is that many “marriages” in the church today are not “marriages” to God, but are adulterous unions—–unions He NEVER joined as one flesh. What He showed me in His Word is that what we have in the church today is an unprecedented amount of husband/wife swapping……………brethren who are defrauding brethren. Brethren who are not “having their own wives/husbands”, but are taking other’s wives/husbands. What we have are pastors who somehow are teaching that once one punches through that sin gauntlet (whosoever divorces their spouse and marries another commits adultery and whosoever marries one divorced commits adultery) that “voila” they are not joined as ONE FlESH by God.

    Where can we find such a teaching in God’s Word? He calls such relationships, adultery (having UNLAWFUL relations with someone who is NOT their spouse). How can one commit adultery AND be married in the sight of God? They can’t. The teaching that once you confess this sin, it is then ok with God to remain in the same relationship is another fallacy. Where do we EVER find in God’s word that confession changes the nature of an illicit relationship? If 2 homosexuals that are “legally married” by the state come to Christ, can they then confess their sin of immorality and then have that relationship sanctified in God’s sight? Do the laws of the land(legalizing homosexuality AND adultery)trump what God has declared about the nature of a relationship? If Jesus said that 2 are no LONGER 2, but are now 1, how can man say otherwise? How can some teach in regards to repenting from adulterous unions—“you can’t unscramble the egg”(that MEN scrambled, aka: joined together, yet they teach that one CAN unscramble the “egg” that God scrambled aka: joined together? Paul teaches that marriage—the original one, is lifelong, not supposed to be lifelong, but IS lifelong (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39, Mal. 2:9-17). John lost his head for such a teaching. Herod/Herodias divorced their spouses and married each other, but John maintained that Herodias belonged to Philip. Divorce didn’t dissolve their marriage, new vows didn’t dissolve their original marriages, the adultery they committed didn’t dissolve their original marriages…………..she STILL belonged to Philip………and John said so………..and lost his head.

    Interesting to me that the Lord led me during my studies on the rapture to the ECF’s writings. I didn’t realize at the time, He would again lead me there to find out what the ECF said concerning marriage too. What I found, like I did concerning the rapture, is that the modern day church is FAR from where it was in the beginning. I found that even the “innocent” party, according to the ECF’s writings, would be in adultery if they remarried while their erring spouse was alive. For me, that coincides with what scripture teaches—-that no matter what, the bond of marriage endures until one of the spouses passes away. Any relationship entered into before that time is adulterous.

    The condition of the church today is very sad. Many have gone astray, and many because Pastors will not preach the Word of God, but instead want numbers, $$$, and the acceptance of man—all to the detriment of the “true” church and it’s witness in this darkened world. When we read the letters to the churches in Rev 2-3, we see every church represented in this age. Still, I am greatly encouraged to see more open dialogues on these controversial issues in the church. The internet, a tool that can be used for bad in the life of a believer, can also be used for GOOD for those who seek Truth. In years past, unless one had the ECF library, it was difficult to read what they wrote. Now, online, ANY person can have access to all the great writings of Christians in the past as well as to other Christians who teach things that may be different than what they are hearing from their own pulpits. Many times we “SEE” things in God’s Word, but do not see it being lived out in our own congregations and just chalk our “seeing” up to maybe not discerning God’s Word rightly. When we then meet others online who too see things as we do, THEN it puts a whole new spin on things. I praise the Lord for those who are seeking HIM and are not satisfied just hearing a word from the pulpit and standing on that word…………but are like the Bereans who sought out truth diligently……..wanting to know God for themselves! Blessings in Him!

    Comment by lastblast — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 am | Reply

  26. Comment by lastblast — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 am
    What I will say is this: many people who hold to pre-trib (and I have some dear friends who do) are loving, kind people.

    [Rev JW - Correct. I have the same.]

    Comment by lastblast — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 am
    However, some (more than a few) I met on RR were some of the nastiest, cutting people I have ever had the displeasure of dialoguing with.

    [Rev JW - Regrettably, I am afraid you are correct again. Even though I am a Pre-Tribulationist, (for good scriptural reason) I have been attacked by my fellow Pre-Tribbers for my belief in the Partial Rapture. I have been banned from several message boards just for the mention of my belief in the Partial Rapture (simply attempting to discuss and share). Many Pre-Tribulationists can be quite ruthless to those few who believe The church (as a majority) is most definitively going into (and die) inside The Great Tribulation Period. On the other hand, believers in all other views have done the same. The individual members of the church are not ‘gracious’ to one another, regardless of their beliefs. Each will stand before Christ and give account of their actions in this physical at the judgment seat of Christ. Every believer needs to take that to heart in their remembrance. Another passage of scripture comes to mind with that realization.

    Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    Not all Christians (and in my view, very few) walk in the Spirit. The majority of the church is wrapped up in and follow after the things of this world. There are sever consequences for such actions. This passage and the next is one of the many passages found within the many contained in the partial rapture teachings.

    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.]

    Comment by lastblast — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 am
    It is a great threat to some to have people negate the pre-trib rapture with MANY scriptures as well as historical evidence that this is a “new” doctrine.

    [Rev JW - Well, I would direct your attention back to my previous posts above. It is not a “new” doctrine, and that is an historical fact. Anyone can believe and continue to teach The Rapture in general and the Partial Rapture specifically a false doctrine, but in light of the historical evidence one cannot deny it was taught since the first century without being wrong. It was believed and taught by the early church. (2nd century - The Shepherd of Hermes)(It was documented by Paul scripturally in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two.)]

    Comment by lastblast — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 am
    Some will scream at you that you are trying to take away their “blessed hope”. Isn’t JESUS is our blessed Hope………….not the timing of His coming?

    [Rev JW - Actually, Jesus and his sacrifice is our salvation. “The Blessed Hope” is his return for the acquisition (acquiring) of his Bride, for the purpose of transporting her back to the Father’s house. That event is defined by its timing.]

    Comment by lastblast — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 am
    Seeing such responses made me realize just how dangerous this doctrine is.

    [Rev JW - There is no danger in teaching the truth that is provided to us by the scripture.]

    Comment by lastblast — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 am
    When I read Eze 13, it makes me think of the pre-trib doctrine and the disappointments/disheartenment God’s people will face who trusted in a pre-trib rapture and one never comes. God desires for us to be equipped to handle ANYTHING and everything that He allows into our lives. He does not want us to think we will “escape” trials and then be emotionally/spiritually overcome when those trials come our way.

    [Rev JW - Unfortunately, most everyone has made up their minds concerning what they individually believe and cannot bring themselves to change those views even in the face of a clear, plain text reading of The Word. I always shake my head when I hear or see someone make reference to the “fact” there will be no “escape” from The Great Tribulation Period. In light of the previous scripture, (and all my previous posts),,

    Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to “escape” all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    I will take my chances with the teachings of The Word my Lord, as apposed to the teachings and interpretation of man. Everyone can teach whatever they wish, but I believe this passage is clear. Verse 35 states that the time period Jesus is informing us of (The Great Tribulation) will come on the world as a snare. The world cannot “escape”, that’s a given. In addition, he cannot be speaking to his disciples from the prospective of them being an illustration of Israel (as I have been “informed” of in the past) since The Great Tribulation Period is the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, the 70th Week of Daniel. Israel cannot “escape” the time God has set aside to point her back to her true Messiah. The only other individual left to be informed of an “escape” is the church. And unfortunately, not even the whole church since this is a warning containing conditions of inclusion.

    Take heed,, watch,, pray,, that you may be “accounted worthy” (none of us are worthy, but we are “accounted worthy” through obedience to the Father, through the Spirit, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ), “accounted worthy” to “escape”.

    One the one hand, Post-Tribulationists deny there will be an “escape” even in the face of Jesus’ description of it.

    On the other hand, traditional Pre-Tribulationists deny one has to be “accounted worthy” in the face of the same passage. “Accounted Worthy to Escape” is one phrase, contained within the same verse, located within the same passage of Jesus detailing the description of The Great Tribulation Period. Jesus mentions an “escape” from the time he is describing. I will continue to trust and believe the words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.]

    Grace and Peace be multiplied to you all in the love of The Father, through The Spirit, in the name of The Son, Jesus Christ my Lord and BrideGroom. 2nd Corinthians 11:1-3.

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — December 23, 2009 @ 2:52 am | Reply

  27. Dear J. W. White and lastblast,

    First, to J. W.:

    I’ve carefully read all of your comments and hope to respond soon. I appreciate your thorough responses and your attitude to know and teach what is right. It would be great to get on the same page someday, doctrinally.

    And to lastblast:

    I’ve totally avoided the marriage, divorce, remarriage issue, but I think it would be interesting to start a dialogue on this in a post dedicated solely to this issue. Do you mind if I copy some of what you say into it to get it going?

    Thank you both and everyone else!

    Jeff Fenske : )

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — December 26, 2009 @ 9:18 pm | Reply

  28. Well, I do not exactly avoid it, but I am in the habit of being the last to mention it because of the controversy I almost always stir up (as is my usual nature and effect, unintended of course) and I am not going to debate or even discuss the matter except to put my two cents in on this one post.

    1. I am divorced. I was an unwilling participant. When it happened I was unprepared for the total control that another person had over my life and future. It changed everything. Although my faith remained, and will always remain intact, I went through “hard times” (and you can never know) that the Lord, a father and brother helped me through.

    2. (I don’t consider myself and minister, although I am ordained as such by name and title through the Southern Baptists and the Texas registration system), as much as I consider myself a preacher. I originally believed I was called as an evangelist, of which I have never served. That being said, being divorced I certainly went through the stress of becoming a divorcee, with my future holding the possibility of remarriage. Of which, yes I have. Two more beautiful children were produced through that process.

    3. I came to terms with all of this for the following reasons.
    God has two wills for our lives.
    A. His perfect will, which no one no matter how close they try, is able to follow precisely. All fall short no matter how close to the mark we sincerely aim.
    B. Then there is his permissive will. The life he allows us to live, attempting to grow ever closer to him in the process, after we (and all of us have and will) stumble, fall and fail to live his perfect will.

    4. As I said, I had no, NO control over those results. She chose what she wanted, the courts laid out the terms, I agreed to them in order to minimize the trauma for my children, family and friends. It was a simple as that.

    5. Cutting to the chase (the controversy), the church overlooks, forgets, or is ignorant of the fact that the same exact event happened to God. Many are shocked when told so, then amazed when shown the record. Israel was “espoused” or engaged to Jehovah under the Old Covenant. Israel (in short) rejected Jehovah by her adulterous actions. Jehovah gave Israel a writing of divorce. Under the New Covenant, Jehovah (Jesus) took another Bride (the Church).

    6. I believe that is the example of permissiveness God allows in our lives. I have told many individuals (through the example above) that God allows to be made what can be made out of every situation through his permissive will. A second coupling can be dedicated to the Lord, and that couple can be a viable tool to God. What God originally intended for their lives where they failed, does not negate what God can make out of a sincere, and rededicated heart.

    That’s all I have to add.

    Comment by Rev J W White JR — December 27, 2009 @ 4:13 am | Reply

  29. Lastblast and J W,

    In case you’re interested, I just posted my theory on some aspects of marriage and divorce in its own post here: http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/my-theory-on-divorce

    Jeff

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — January 5, 2010 @ 2:10 am | Reply

  30. Thanks for speaking out against the pre-tribulation “rapture” false doctrine. The very same people who tell you to your face that they do not fear their Creator will then turn around and add and/or take away from the prophecy of the book of Revelation in which Yahusha warned that the HEARERS who do such things WILL receive the Wrath of Elohim. They will realize soon that they are still here when the events of Revelation unfold. The love of most will grow cold and ONLY those who endure to the end shall be saved. ONLY righteousness will help.
    777denny

    Comment by Denny — January 29, 2011 @ 4:26 pm | Reply

  31. It really doesn’t matter at all when pre-trib was first taught. What matters is that people like Luther, Wesley etc changed the entire church and world Christian view. So, let’s just get it straight…using the cliche,’ that it’s not been taught before means it isn’t right’ is not really acceptable. Doctrinally, the awesome scriptures, word of God and prophetic teachings have never been interpreted correctly by Jews, Christians or the Church.
    What we do know, is that he will come, ‘like a thief in the night’. We don’t know when, but we have some clues. Apostasy will be rife. Although, when we’re asked if Apostasy is growing today, we think NOT! But the truth is that Jesus will come when the world is asleep. Many will be decieved. Read his word. Read ‘Footsteps of the Messiah’ by Arnold Fruchtenbaum and then I’ll be interested to hear your ‘absolute’ views.

    Beware of the falst prophets.

    Comment by GregO — February 21, 2011 @ 4:04 am | Reply

  32. In the Book of The Revelation, are there not two divisions of judgments? Seven Seals, the seventh seal opened the seven vials of the wrath of God. I heard preached that the wrath of God will happen quickly, and that maybe the taken of the saints will happen during the wrath of God is delivered as Lot and his family leaving Sodom as the judgement of God destroyed Sodom. Throughout all the tribulation non repented Revelation 9:20-21. Noah’s preaching no one repented before the judgement. Instead of repenting they got angry at God! Here is my question, why would you want to leave when the church will experience the greatest power of God in these last days? The disciples experienced and saw the power of God and at the end still didn’t believe (before the resurrection), the Jews experienced the power of God in Egypt and wanted to go back.
    Talk about the patience, grace and mercy of God!

    Comment by David — March 7, 2011 @ 7:55 pm | Reply

  33. PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS !

    How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He’s now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the too-hot-to-handle Acts 3:21!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends (Acts 2:34,35 echo this), the rapture therefore can’t take place before the end of the trib!
    Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel’s posttrib resurrection!)
    Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!).
    Other Google articles on the 181-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).

    PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS !

    How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He’s now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the too-hot-to-handle Acts 3:21!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends (Acts 2:34,35 echo this), the rapture therefore can’t take place before the end of the trib!
    Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel’s posttrib resurrection!)
    Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!).
    Other Google articles on the 181-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).

    Comment by Lou — June 12, 2011 @ 9:22 am | Reply

  34. I am not sure if the rapture is posttrib or pretrib. I have a problem with the pretrib view. Babies born prior to the pretrib rapture will be translated to heaven, however, what about babies born during the tribulation and after the rapture. I do not believe in a partial rapture; it is not biblical. Therefore, I have two choices: posttributional premillennialism or amillennialism. I choose the view held by Baptist Pat Robertson: posttrib premil view.
    It is the only one that makes sense to me.

    Comment by Deacon Charles E. Miller, BA , MAR, DipBS, Abschlussurkunde in Biblische Studien — October 7, 2011 @ 6:00 pm | Reply

  35. (I agree with Deacon Miller above. BTW, here’s a thought-provoker I recently read on the net.)

    Pretrib Rapture Pride

    by Bruce Rockwell

    Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
    Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
    The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
    BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
    Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
    Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
    Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
    Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
    Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving in Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot,” the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
    Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
    (Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)

    Comment by Gavin — February 8, 2013 @ 8:06 pm | Reply

    • I tend to be a partial preterist amillennialist or optimistic amillennialist. I cannot be pretirbulationist. It has to do with babies born at the pretrib rapture and those born after the rapture. Why should babies born before the rapture get to go to heaven, and those born after the rapture must stay on earth? How is that just?

      Comment by Charles E. Miller, Jr., BA in German, MA in Religion — February 10, 2013 @ 8:37 am | Reply

  36. George Eldon Ladd, who was a believer in post-trib premillennialism, even admitted in his book on the subject that the millennium is only mentioned in Revelation 20. Ladd said the Gospels seem to hold an amillennial view even though he himself remained premillennialist. John Walvoord accused Dr. Ladd of being an amillennialist. I agree with Dr. Ladd that pretribulationism is unscriptural and wrong. I must agree.

    Comment by Charles E. Miller, Jr., BA in German, MA in Religion — February 20, 2013 @ 2:42 am | Reply

  37. Let us say that the posttrib view is the correct one. I am willing to accept the possibility that it is. Who is to say that the whole Book of Revelation deals with the future. It could be that the Revelation should be interpreted from a Partial Preterist position. It is possible the the Great Tribulation occurred under the Roman Emperor Nero or even Domitian. Domitian called himself Dominus et Deus! I have thought about it and believe that Chapters 20 through 22 are future. This has been an interesting discussion. Let me say this: Let us not predict the coming of our Lord Jesus. It is possble that we all may walk the road of physical death with Him or meet Him in the air. No one knows which. We should stop predicting and setting dates and just know that as Christians we will be with Him. Eternal Life is certain.I know what I have believed that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day. I look forward to the millennial kingdom and Heaven. It will be a time when my wife and I are reunited with our godly parents. I miss them so much! Does anyone agree with me?

    Comment by Charles E. Miller, Jr., BA in German, MA in Religion — February 20, 2013 @ 4:56 am | Reply

    • Charles,

      I do think we will know the season as things get closer and closer, based on current events and on what God is saying. And I don’t believe anyone should count on getting raptured out before the end.

      We can be confident that God will never let us go through anything He won’t enable us to endure — which is often in the form of 2 Cor. 1 “when the sufferings of Christ flow His comfort flows.” Corrie Ten Boom has talked about this, and Richard Wurmbrand in “Tortured for Christ.” And we’ve seen this happen numerous times in church history when persecution comes, and when the believers keep themselves totally pure and forgive all of their enemies, like Richard did. And of course, Stephen is a great biblical example.

      We absolutely need to keep our hearts clean, being right with all people, so we can be ‘ONE’ in Christ, filled with God, ready for anything. God will only keep us as we keep ourselves in Him: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? We weren’t taught correctly in grad school. I’d love it if you checked out what I wrote here about salvation.

      I think it’s possible that some will get taken out before the end, like Enoch who walked with God. But I’m not counting on it; though, a pastor had a prophecy for me regarding something about Enoch, once — maybe it was just about being really close to God as being the goal.

      I’m planning on doing the best I can to hear and obey until the end — and hopefully with many other like-hearted individuals who are all seeking God together. I desperately want to see Jesus’ prayer for us in John 17 fulfilled: “that the world will know” — and we will be so filled with the joy of the Lord no matter what.

      Paul and Silas worshiping God after having been beaten in jail, for example.

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 20, 2013 @ 5:12 pm | Reply

      • Brother Jeff,

        I can see your point. I respect your scholarship as a brother in Christ. If I don’t meet you here, we shall meet in the Kingdom. God bless.

        Comment by Charles E. Miller, Jr., BA in German, MA in Religion — February 20, 2013 @ 8:34 pm | Reply

  38. MY PAINSTAKING REFUTATION OF THE ARTICLE: 12 REASONS NOT TO EXCEPT A PRE-TRIBULATION RATURE

    1. As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is NO SINGLE verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Trib Rapture.

    RESPONSE:
    First, John Walvoord is far from the only authority on pre-trib rapture and one person saying a statement like this means nothing. Here are two verses that clearly teach an imminent rapture:

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thess, 4:16-18).

    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:51-53).
    The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning–something Jesus used quite frequently–I hope to prove the reality of the pretribulation rapture.

    The word “rapture” comes from Paul’s “caught up” remark in verse 17. The words “caught up” are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means “to carry off,” “snatch up,” or “grasp hastily.” The translation from harpazo to “rapture” involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.”

    2. Pre-Trib’ers FORCE ASSUMPTIONS on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect” (who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”) must refer to “those individuals who are saved” AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place. (Again, how are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the “Church” and the “restrainer” [i.e., the Holy Spirit according to Pre-Trib’ers] have been removed?)

    You are assuming that everyone who claims to be “Christian” will be raptured. Many (and I mean like 90%) will be left behind, many of them being those who did not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Only those who are ready (having a full oil lamp, living a holy life and are not loving the world (idolatry) will be ready for the rapture).

    The first thing that you must understand is the purpose for the Tribulation. The Tribulation is a time of judgment on the earth and punishment for Israel. Please note that Israel and the Church are not the same group of people. The Church is a spiritual organism. People in the Church are related because of their spiritual birth (by being born again – John 3:3). The people of Israel (Jews) are related by blood. This is a race of people to whom God made special promises in the Old Testament. God declared a time of judgment upon Israel for their unfaithfulness. This time of judgment is clearly declared to be only for Israel (Daniel 9:24-27).

    3. We are NOT able to find one single instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, or the Apostle John made any statement to the effect that “the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years PRIOR to the beginning of the end-times’ tribulation period”. Isn’t that a bit strange if the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is the correct one?

    RESPONSE:

    Paul, Peter, nor John has said any statement to the effect that “the church is to go through the tribulation and then be raptured AFTER the 7 year tribulation period” either. The rapture is a resurrection of those “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:13-18 ). Isn’t it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn’t any mention here. Don’t you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn’t mentioned because it doesn’t happen at the second coming.
    In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says “the one who restrains will be taken out of the way” before the Antichrist can be revealed.

    Peter did allude in a vague way to the Rapture in 2 Peter 2:9 where He documented the fact that God knows how to distinguish the righteous from the unrighteous. Not only does he use Lot as an example in verses 7-8 (Remember, the angels could not judge Sodom and Gommorah until Lot and his family had left. Many scholars see Lot’s experience as a model of the Rapture.) but he also used language reminiscent of 1 Thes. 1:10 when He explained that God will rescue godly men from trials while holding the unrighteous for the day of judgment. The Greek word translated “from” in verse 9 means “out of, or away from”.

    In the book of John, Jesus uses the term “last day” to indicate when the lost would be judged. II Peter 3:10-13 The “Day of the Lord” Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ’s 1000 year reign. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium–yet another 1000 year gap.

    Surely, Paul would not be warning us to watch for a day that would be coming at the end of the tribulation. That type of logic would be like warning children, as they cross the road, to watch out for tail lights.

    4. Despite taking several texts OUT OF CONTEXT from a few early church fathers’ writings, the Pre-Trib’ers really CANNOT find any predominant, popular teaching that supports the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint in any era of Church history prior to the 1830s.

    RESPONSE:

    But, is that assessment historically accurate? Indeed, it is not.
    The Early Church fathers’ such as Barnabas (ca.100-105), Papias (ca. 60-130), Justin Martyr (110-195), Irenaeus (120-202), Tertullian (145-220), Hippolytus (ca. 185-236), Cyprian (200-250), and Lactantius (260-330) wrote on the imminent return of Jesus Christ, the central argument for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view.

    Biblical truth is determined by Scripture, and not how that teaching has been perceived at different times during history. When Augustine began spiritualizing the Bible, his view of a non-literal interpretation took hold of the church until the Renaissance, obliterating the Premillennial and Pre-Tribulation Rapture views in favor of Amillennialism. But, some Medieval writers such as Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373), Abbot Ceolfrid’s Latin Codex Amiatinus (ca. 690-716), and Brother Dolcino wrote statements that distinguish the Rapture from the Second Coming.

    When the chains of allegorical interpretation began to fall off beginning with the Reformation in the 1400 and 1500s, writers such as Joseph Mede (1586-1638), Increase Mather (1639-1723), Peter Jurieu (1687), Philip Doddridge (1738), John Gill (1748), James Macknight (1763), Thomas Scott (1792) and Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) all wrote concerning the Rapture occurring separate from the Second Coming. Even in the more modern church, those like William Witherby (1818) were precursors to John Darby in support of the view. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is indeed then not only biblical, but supported throughout Church history.

    5. Many learned men of the Christian faith, such as John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitefield, etc., were all solid Post-Trib believers!

    RESPONSE:

    Appealing to authority to substantiate your argument is not proof that your argument is more valid. Many learned men of the Christian faith, such as Jimmy Swaggart, J. Dwight Pentecost, Tim LaHaye, J. Vernon McGee, Perry Stone, Chuck Smith, Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler, Jack Van Impe, Grant Jeffrey, Thomas Ice, David Reagan, David Jeremiah, and John Hagee are all solid PRE-trib believers!

    6. The Pre-Trib Rapture is a very big “cash cow” for Pre-Trib writers. Yet, there are some Pre-Trib’ers who will admit that the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is still a minority viewpoint among Bible scholars. How can that be, you may ask, since so many prophecy books favor the “Pre-Trib” viewpoint? That is because so many of the major “Christian” publishing houses are, for the most part, CONTROLLED by “liberal Christians”. Post-Trib writers often find it extremely hard to get their books published by these publishing houses, because Pre-Trib “sells”. (Could that be because the Pre-Trib Rapture appeals to an “escapist” mentality? It’s that mentality of “I sure don’t want to be here when the Antichrist takes over!” The Pre-Trib Rapture viewpoint appeals to our “flesh” – after all, who wants to face persecution?) Also, Dr. Robert “Bob” Gundry says that most of the professors [at Bible colleges] that he knows hold the Post-Trib Rapture viewpoint. He adds that even some of the professors at Bible colleges of the “Pre-Trib Rapture persuasion” hold the Post-Trib viewpoint, but cannot say so publicly for fear of losing their positions! Students who openly advocate Post-Trib at these “Pre-Trib Bible colleges” might not be allowed to graduate!

    RESPONSE:

    I’m weary of those who mock the Pre-Tribulation position by saying it’s escapist. They claim that since countless believers have faced tribulation, persecution and martyrdom, why should we hope to escape it?

    The answer is simple: Up till the time of the Rapture, the trouble Christians have faced came from this corrupt and rebellious world system that hated them; it was Satan’s wrath they endured. Jesus told us to expect THAT kind of trouble. But the trouble of the Tribulation comes from God’s hand – it’s His wrath, and Jesus already paid for that for us.

    In Luke 21:34-36 Jesus said –
    34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

    The “Day” He refers to here is the Day of the Lord, a period of history that begins with the Rapture.

    35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    There’s that phrase – “earth-dwellers” again.

    36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    A Pre-Trib Rapture isn’t escapist. It’s the thing Jesus told us to look and pray we’d be ready for!

    7. Despite the fact that many Pre-Trib’ers dislike author Dave MacPherson, they have NOT been able to disprove his well-documented findings that show that the Pre-Trib Rapture’s origins (as far as any public teaching) date back to the 1830s – and not earlier than that era! Nor have the Pre-Trib’ers been able to disprove MacPherson’s findings that the vast majority of the early church fathers taught that the church would go THROUGH the “end-times’ tribulation” – and lots of tribulation along the way to the “end-times’ tribulation”.

    RESPONSE:

    Well, this info must be outdated or is someone’s opinion because he is not a credible historian from my research.
    In his books The Incredible Cover-Up and The Great Rapture Hoax, MacPherson professes to be a historian. His work is lacking in historical method. Consider his claim that William Kelly, as editor of Darby’s Collected Writings, manipulated them. Regarding Darby’s Notes on Revelation (1839) MacPherson writes:

    We’ve previously noted that a chart (listing no artist or date) accompanying this work shows the church in heaven no later than Revelation 4 -additional manipulation and further contradiction of Darby’s Revelation 12 basis! (p. 152)
    I have inspected a xeroxed copy of the 1839 edition of this work published by Central Tract Depot, London. The chart in question is there and shows the church in heaven in Revelation chapter 4! MacPherson’s speculation is without foundation. A true historian would inspect the original source materials before making the claims that MacPherson does. He is governed by an agenda, not a desire for unbiased historical research.

    Here are a few of the many deficiencies that I found in The Rapture Plot:

    1. MacPherson states that the key symbol of the pre tribulation rapture for Margaret Macdonald is the catching up of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 (p. 47-49). If this is true, one wonders if MacPherson has ever read Revelation 11. Before the witnesses are caught up (verse 12), the beast makes war with them and kills them (verse 7). Thus the two witnesses go through tribulation before they are killed, raised and caught up. So if Macdonald’s teaching is based on this passage, she is certainly post tribulational! Actually, there is no doubt that the woman who said, “The trial of the Church is from Antichrist” was post tribulational.
    This is just some of the massive problems with Dave MacPerson’s credibility and research and therefore his assessment of the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint is also not credible.
    8. Public teaching of the Pre-Trib Rapture originated in the British Isles during the 1830s. (The Jesuits did some “futurist creativity” in the prophetic arena many years prior to that time.) The Pre-Trib “theory” was then “transported” to America a little bit later, and was popularized by the “Scofield Study Bible”.

    RESPONSE:

    Most importantly, the doctrine of the rapture does not stand or fall on who may have first noticed and taught certain elements of doctrine in scripture. The rapture doctrine is valid only if it is supported by scripture. The Protestant reformation was based on turning to scripture to resolve matters.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    That alone should be enough to put this entire matter to rest, and nothing more need be said. It is obvious that we must agree that something true, such as 2+2=4, remains true, even when such a truth is spoken by a liar, or the most evil man. Truth does not become untrue just because an evil or stupid man speaks it. Therefore, there is simply no basis for the claim that the rapture is an evil deception because futurism was once taught by an evil Jesuit. I could read 1000 pages on how the Jesuits are evil, and I can even agree on that. I could even read about, and agree that, an evil Jesuit expounded the doctrine of futurism for the evil purpose of trying to discredit the Protestant reformation. But neither of those facts has any bearing on the truthfulness of the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture.

    Further, not only is the entire idea of the “Jesuit rapture” irrelevant (only scripture is relevant) but also, the idea is absurd. The doctrine of the pretribulation rapture is simply not taught by the Catholic Church! Therefore, the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture condemns the Catholic Church because it makes the Catholic Church into a “false prophet” since they do not teach it! I could go further but I feel its not necessary.

    9. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, one must ignore several key Bible verses that speak directly against the Pre-Trib Rapture, such as John 17:15 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself prays that the Father NOT take believers OUT OF the world – and I Thessalonians 4:16, 17 (which says that the Christians living at the time of Jesus Christ’s return are not caught up UNTIL AFTER the “dead in Christ” are raised “FIRST”)!

    RESPONSE:

    Well, this just shows you are not as well versed in interpreting scripture.
    Using John 17:15 this way, you are taking that verse way out of context. He is talking about them staying on earth to spread the true Gospel of Christ. he didn’t want to take them home right away but leave them to do a specific Job. but he also wanted them to be protected from the devil. Now why does Paul say in Corinthians, the dead in Christ shall rise first and then we which remain shall meat Him in the air. Notice we shall meat Him in the air. he will not come to earth so this is not talking of the second coming because he doesn’t actually come. what else could it be. THE RAPTURE!!!
    10. Believing in the Pre-Trib Rapture, it seems to me, goes AGAINST the prevalent theme of those portions of the Bible that deal with tribulation and persecution. That prevalent theme is “preservation IN THE MIDST OF tribulation”. (Please recall the accounts of Daniel in the lions’ den, and of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace!)

    RESPONSE:

    The expression “kept from” is very important. It does not mean “preservation through” or “preservation in” but it means “exemption from.” The Post-Tribulation view and the Pre-Wrath view both see the believer staying on the earth during the Tribulation period. “Preservation through” would fit their view because they understand that God will preserve the Church through the Tribulation or through most of the Tribulation. “Exemption from” best fits the Pre- Tribulation view because the Church is not on the earth at all during the Tribulation and thus the Church is exempt from the trials and troubles associated with that time. The term “kept from” best fits the idea of “exemption from.”

    Literally this phrase means “to be kept out of” [Greek, ek]. Its meaning is similar to how we use these terms in English. To be kept out of jail means that the person will not be behind bars. To be kept out of the swimming pool means that the person is exempt from getting wet.
    Does God keep us out of the realm and power of the evil one or are we still in it?

    The answer is found in Colossians 1:13– “Who hath delivered us from [out of] the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son.” We once were in the realm of the power of darkness, but we have been delivered out of that realm when we were saved.
    There are countless other examples that support this fact.

    11. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, you have to ASSUME that you will be among a very “select group” of Christians who will not have to suffer horrible things during the “end-times’ tribulation”. Your “select group” excludes those MILLIONS of Christians from past centuries who were NOT “air evacuated” out of their tribulation and suffering, and the many individuals who get “saved” (i.e., are “born again”) during the “end-times’ tribulation”, and who will suffer martyrdom!

    RESPONSE:

    In answer to the question, “Will the Church go through Tribulation?” we must answer “YES!”
    In answer to the question, “Will the Church go through THE Tribulation?” the answer is “NO!
    Those who are left behind will have to suffer persecution. (remember, not everyone who says they are Christians really are). Also, there is no assumption to who will or will not be raptured. If you are “ready and waiting” like the 5 wise virgins in the parable of the 10 virgins, you will be raptured. Unfortunately, few are actually ready and still are attached to this world, still sinning, still lukewarm (or not really for God) or believe in the wrong stuff. Saying you are a Christian does not mean you are Christ-like, just like sitting in a garage doesn’t makes you a car.

    12. The Pre-Trib Rapture viewpoint, for the most part, seems to produce very BAD FRUIT – that is, it seems to have “neutralized” many Christians living today, causing them to sit back and to NOT fight evil. (And that’s, because, don’t you know, they won’t be here when things get really bad.) Could this “doctrine” have been specifically designed to “neutralize” Christians?

    RESPONSE:

    It is very true that there are many Christians who are “neutralized” or a better BIBLICAL term, Lukewarm, but this is not caused by the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint. If they believed the rapture was imminent, and that the requirements for the rapture is holiness and righteous, and those left behind included sinners (christian or not), the lukewarm, the the worldly Christians, I think a lot of people would be on fire for God using the pre-trib rapture viewpoint. On the other hand, post-trib viewpoint would cause one to be lazy or not alert since there would be no rapture to worry about (or in this case, miss) and getting rid of sin in your life would not need any rush because “you will go through the tribulation”. Making an assumption that ALL Christians would be raptured is what is causing post-trib’ers to be confused. The road is narrow to the kingdom of heaven, while the road to destruction is wide. So I think you got it neutralizing viewpoints backwards.

    MY SUMMARY;

    There is what I call “cumulative relevance” where when you take all the evidence for any given viewpoint and they all outweigh the other viewpoint, that it logically concludes that the one with the most cumulative relevance is the correct idea. There is more evidence for pre-tribulation rapture than post-trib.
    This information includes:
    -Countless youtube videos from people of every age, race, gender and biblical knowledge level confirming the pre-tribulation, immanency of the rapture.-
    -Many biblical events mirror or proclaims a pre-tribulation rapture picture (The ancient Jewish marriage ceremony, Song of Solomon 2:08-14, supernatural translation events like Encoch before the flood, Elijah in a whirlwind in the early times of Israel, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, resurrection and ascension of the two witnesses, and several more)
    -Every testimony from God to someone ALWAYS confirms a pre-tribulation rapture. God always tells them to “stay ready”, “be prepared,” “I am coming for my bride”, “I am at the doors”, “I come soon”, “The wedding feast is ready”.

    God has told Susan Davis, a prophet about what will happen soon. Here is an excerpt from “marriage supper of the lamb”. This is God speaking:
    “Many will witness this Event as those left behind. Fewer will witness it as those who are taken out of the earth. I want you to be one of those who are rescued, but you must be made ready if you want to come out with ME. Only those who have washed themselves white in MY Blood and who are avidly watching for MY Soon Return will be coming with ME, when I call MY bride up hither. Only a few will be coming. This is serious, MY children, all others will stay behind.”

    and

    “Children, you need to be ready. Don’t be caught unawares. I do not want to leave anyone behind, but sadly many will be left. What a sad hour is coming. I want you to awaken. Come to terms with this reality. I am approaching and I am even at the door. Soon, no one will be surprised anymore as reality will set in as to what has happened. The world will know that change has come to it, great changes. It will not be the same place very soon. MY children, listen to ME closely, I will not take you if you have unrepentant sin. I cannot take you with ME. It cannot be, MY children. So come before ME and repent of your sin. Please make this a priority.”

    read the entire revelation free at:http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/162979

    and at: http://end-times-prophecy.com/blog/

    Remember, if I am wrong, I will STILL be ready for the tribulation and I will just say “oops, i was wrong”. If YOU are wrong, you will be left behind and will have to fight through torture, heavy deception and resisting the mark of the beast and the beasts’ wrath on Christians. I have nothing to loose in believing in pre-tribulation rapture, but YOU have almost EVERYTHING to loose if you believe in a post-tribulation rapture. So consider changing your view just to be sure. Its in YOUR best interest to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. If you are ready for the pre-trib, you are ready for the post-trib as well. Its only logical. You must be skeptical of your own belief in order to know if your belief is indeed true. Otherwise, you will not know if you are being deceived or not. This is a matter of life or death. You have very little time left if it a pre-tribulation rapture. Choose wisely. Thanks for your time.

    MOST OF MY SOURCES FOR RESEARCH TO REFUTE THIS ARTICLE:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/left-behind-rapture.html

    http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

    http://www.soulwinning.info/prophecy/2nd_peter_39.htm

    http://lamblion.com/articles/articles_rapture7.php

    http://www.seekfirstwisdom.com/index.php?p=1_102_Problem-With-Post-Tribulation

    http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

    http://www.raptureforums.com/forum/christian-chat/23463-iron-clad-proof-rapture-pre-trib.html

    http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/sixteenproofs.cfm

    http://prophecy.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/rapture-proofs.html

    http://christianitynotchurchianity.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-proof-of-pre-trib-rapture.html

    http://www.raptureme.com/rap199.html

    http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/rapture/the-pretribulation-rapture-explained.htm

    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewrath.htm

    http://end-times-prophecy.com/blog/

    Comment by Phillip — April 24, 2013 @ 12:29 pm | Reply

  39. Hal Lindsey couldn’t be more wrong… stop the errors… read the evidence…

    http://Bibleendtimesreexamined.fhero.net/index.html

    Suggest link…

    author email on page….

    Comment by cathy — October 23, 2013 @ 7:06 pm | Reply

  40. Corruptions that are brought about to the Apostasy, Prophesied. A visionary by the Spirit standing in what looked like a Church saw a group of people discussing among themselves, when all of a sudden the visionary recognized among them a woman, her head covered(due baldness) & on noticing this the woman attacked the visionary,when at the same moment come out the Lords Prayer from the Visionary. in the Spirit, to which the woman fled cursing away as a lawless one . Incidentally the woman was found to be the spirit of QE 1(excommunicated by St. Pius the V) & the church was west Minister Abbey where are buried the Royals. Now to the understanding by the Lords Prayer is the Kingdom of God against the Kingdom of the woman, this world, on whom the satanic attributes spoken unto the Prince of Tyre can said to fall upon arising from the corruptions of the Messanic temple to form the MASONIC temple. to which the kingdoms of this world relates by the corruptions, occult & the violences. &above all by deceit, the result is clearly to the Biblical Prophecy. Moreover “The Lie of the Golden Calf” is exposed looking at the various alters figured within the Freemasonic Israeli Supreme Court, the Abomination that stands by to the cause of the desolation.

    Comment by abey — November 13, 2013 @ 10:40 pm | Reply

  41. Reblogged this on randomtips4life and commented:
    More people need to know this

    Comment by lazzy37 — January 13, 2014 @ 3:29 pm | Reply

  42. Pretrib Rapture History’s Stages

    If a young woman in Scotland hadn’t dreamed up the “pre-tribulation fly-away” in 1830; if a British clergyman hadn’t hijacked her dream and sneakily planted it around the world in the 1800s; if a crooked, jailed-for-forgery lawyer with no theological background hadn’t come out with a reference Bible in 1909 with the same fly-away escapism in marginal notes; and if modern-day rapture robber barons and tribulational tycoons hadn’t found numerous ways (and gimmicks like four “blood moons”) to widely mass-market the same delicious delusion for the masses while breaking sales records, no one could now be into the moonshine, looking up at the moon and saying “Moon, you mush be drunk becaush I shee four of you!” LOL (If none of this had ever happened, no one would have written anti-pretrib articles that are on Google etc., articles like “Evangelicals Use Occult Deception,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” and “Pretrib Rapture Stealth.” And no one would have written “The Rapture Plot” – the most accurate, most detailed, and most highly endorsed nonfiction history of the 184-year-old pretrib rapture theory, available by calling 800.643.4645; the author of it will give $1000 to anyone proving there is any deliberate dishonesty in it.)

    [Hi, Jeff. The preceding snippet was spotted on the ever present web. Would like to see reactions.]

    Comment by Rocky2 — January 30, 2014 @ 9:42 pm | Reply

  43. The Living Word of Almighty God has nothing to do with the lie of the pre-tribulation rapture. When these liars finally understand what an abomination it is and the desolation that is has caused they will weep and they will mourn. It is s stinking trench full of twice dead men’s bones and denies the fulfillment of Jesus Christ coming to His own and keeps His children from coming to Him and it keeps them from taking up their cross and dying in Him and from loving His Word and His Name in them. It is a lie because it makes Christians, arrogant, complacent and proud and denies the final of victory of Jesus Christ over death and the Revelation of His Testimony and His Name. They are complacent because they love their own life, they think they do not need anything and they fear death and the fruit they long for will be taken from them. They are proud because they do not think they need to be humble and they despise holiness, love and unity, righteousness and purity and the Word of God made perfect in them. They sniff contemptuously at the gift of God and His sacred bread and dance around this shrine completely naked in their pride and they sacrifice their own children to it because it is an idol of their name and their number. They are arrogant because they believe they will be given and receive what they do not ask for and they will find what they do not seek and they will enter where they refuse to go. In their arrogance they believe the narrow door is a walk down the aisle and that is all they need and that the Way is as wide as the sea and that they do need to be blameless when He comes because what they teach is antichrist because it denies Christ coming in the flesh in them, the Firstfruit of why we came to Him in the first place. They have overcome nothing, they trample the Holy City of Truth and they refuse to enter in the Temple and give God the Holiest place in them. They know nothing and their horses are flesh and not Spirit. Jesus Christ does not know them and they do not know Him. They are a rejected branch that is about to be cut-off and thrown into the flames if they do not repent and stop spreading lies in the Name of Jesus Christ. I tell you the Truth, God’s wrath burns against these prophets of fortune and their worthless words. They say, then let God be the judge, but Jesus Christ says, if they knew the truth they would understand that those who overcome and are willing to endure patiently until the end will judge them because God has entrusted all judgment to His Son, even Christ in us who is the first and the last. Jesus Christ is my authority to judge and He has put a sword of justice in my mouth to rebuke them and throw them out. Yes they always quote the same few scriptures they stole from the image of the roof of God’s house, but they have cut themselves off from everything else including the Israel of God, so they will die and suffer intensely in their sin and on that day Jesus will say to them, I never knew you, throw this man out. The souls of those deceived by this lie cry out for justice against these wicked men. I do not understand why these men are not terrified for adding to the Revelation of Jesus Christ and taking away from it in direct defiance of the command of God, but they will be. I tell you this in love and in truth, do not lose your prize because of what some man taught you. Eat the unleavened bread of life, the Word of God and pray to God to show you the Truth today even now.

    Comment by elh777@comcast.net — March 1, 2014 @ 9:23 pm | Reply

  44. Can you explain this?

    Please observe:

    Luke 17:36-37

    36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]
    37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
    So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

    Rightly divided with this (2 Tim. 2:15):

    Revelation 19:21

    And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

    Please note that the context of the Rev. verse I posted is indeed when the Lord returns; when heaven is opened and the son of man is revealed.

    So please explain, sincerely,

    Jonathan

    P.S. My weblog is meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com
    P.P.S. Let this just be fuel to the fire to those that agree. So, in other words, you don’t need to explain it to me. But for those that disagree please email me with an explanation.
    P.P.P.S. And to all:

    I sincerely ask you all to enjoy my weblog.

    Comment by blazyjon — May 30, 2014 @ 3:34 pm | Reply

  45. Thanks. It’s a great post.

    Comment by Tom Phillips — June 3, 2014 @ 1:45 am | Reply

  46. […] 12 Reasons not to expect a pre-trib rapture […]

    Pingback by End Times Prophecy Headlines: September 9, 2014 | End Times Prophecy Report — September 9, 2014 @ 2:24 am | Reply

  47. Which is correct? 2+2=4 or 2×2=4? (Both!) The Jews in Jesus time looked at the prophecies of Him coming as a King, not prophecies of Him coming to die. (Both were true – Two incidents.) Because of their blinders, they rejected Jesus. Only those without blinders were saved. (Don’t repeat history!) Read to the end, please.

    Some are looking for Jesus after the Tribulation starts – some before. (Both are true – Two incidents.) Those who say “after” are right! Some Christians WILL go through the Tribulation and will be killed. (True!) After the Last Trumpet of the Tribulation, everyone will see Jesus’ second coming. (True!)

    What happens before the Tribulation? The Rapture. Jesus will not come back to earth. We will go to Him! Jesus said He is coming “like a thief in the night” and people will be “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” If this was after the Tribulation, people would not be living that way and they would not be surprised when Jesus comes back 7 years after the Tribulation starts.

    In Luke 12:45, one servant is beating the other servants telling them the Lord is delaying His return. He will be cut to pieces. Please don’t tell Christians Jesus is delaying His return. Tell them to WATCH because it could happen this month.

    I Thes 5:4 says, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” Jesus told us to keep watch. Be sober. It will happen at a time we think not.

    Google “Feast of Trumpets Rapture.” They also have a “Last Trumpet.” (Both are true!) In the Tribulation, an angel blows the last trumpet. In the Rapture, it is the trumpet of God – not angels. (Two different incidents.)

    Comment by Anonymous — September 9, 2014 @ 1:51 pm | Reply

  48. The Pretrib Rapture Jackpot!

    by Bruce Rockwell

    Attention, writers. You can make a fortune by promoting the pretrib rapture!
    First, some background. As you know, pretrib began in Scotland in 1830. The earliest developers, including Edward Irving and John Darby, admitted that it was then a totally new view that had never been part of any church’s theology.
    They also admitted that it had suddenly sprung from only OT and NT “types” and “symbols” and not from any clear Bible statement!
    As late as 1957, pretrib expert John Walvoord admitted in “The Rapture Question” (p. 148) that “pretribulationism” is NOT “an explicit teaching of Scripture”!
    Since the early 1900s pretrib has been sold by novelists like Sydney Watson (in 1913) and by Salem Kirban whose “Left Behind”-type novel “666” came out in 1970 – the same year Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” started breaking sales records.
    The very first rapture novel titled “Left Behind” came from the joint pens of Peter and Patti Lalonde in mid-1995, resulting in some competitors being left behind.
    The pretrib rapture view, which admittedly is only an “inference” and not “explicit,” rests basically on verses in John 14, I Thess. 4, and I Cor. 15, none of which have either a “taken/left” separation or exciting, nail-biting scenarios that can “sell” pretrib.
    You have to go to Revelation’s action-packed chapters instead. When you do, you discover they can be tied to end time details found basically in the Olivet Discourse.
    As you know, pretribs believe in two stages; Stage 1 is the pretrib rapture which supposedly occurs several years before Stage 2 which is the posttrib second coming to earth.
    Since the three “rapture” chapters listed above don’t have any clear rapture-type separation between the “righteous” and the “wicked,” your best launching pad if you want to be a bestselling author is “the one shall be taken, and the other left” phrase in Matt. 24:40, 41 and Luke 17:34-36.
    Trouble is, Dr. Walvoord and many other pretrib leaders declare that the “one taken” are the “wicked” taken in judgment while the “righteous” are left! But since the average pew-sitters don’t seem to know this, you can easily convince them that the “one taken” is a sort of code for an any-moment pretrib rapture!
    And the pew-sitters don’t know that Walvoord etc. also teach that the same phrase is part of “non-imminent” Stage 2 which is posttrib (and not pretrib) and is on “Jewish” (and not “Church”) ground!
    In order to preserve and emphasize Stage 1 (the pretrib rapture), pretrib merchandisers in recent decades have been stretching forward various aspects found in Stage 2 and quietly applying them to Stage 1. Aspects include “the day of the Lord,” “God’s wrath,” “the taken/left phrase,” “the unknown day and hour,” and Christ’s coming “as a thief” (which is always tied to Armageddon and other posttrib events).
    (For more on the above Google “The Correct Answer to Who’s Taken” etc. on Joe Ortiz’s blog of Apr. 12, 2010. Also Google “Pretrib Rapture Stealth.”)
    Yes, I’ve told you how you can turn yourself into a bestselling, wealthy author.
    But unfortunately you have some competition because Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have already become opportunists and made millions of dollars that are destined to be left behind!
    For more on them and their partners, Google “The ‘Left Behind’ Rupture,” “LaHaye’s Temperament,” “Jerry Jenkins Apologizes for Being Seen Gambling in Casinos,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” “Evangelicals Use Occult Deception,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
    In closing let me say that Jeremiah 17:11 warns that “he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.”
    And you can bet on this!

    [Saw the above on the net. Enjoy.]

    Comment by Irv Spielberg — September 15, 2014 @ 5:04 pm | Reply


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