One Can Happen

May 6, 2008

16 Comments »

  1. Joe did such a great job on exposing rock and roll with his DVD called “they gave there soul for rock and roll”. This is a huge disappointment to see these teaching coming from his lips. In a nut shell he is telling people that you must earn your salvation. While I will admit that some of the teachings shown here are be C. Stanley are a little shaky. There is no way you can earn your way to heaven. Think again! Yes many are using once saved to there destruction. But they were never saved to begin with. Jesus saves. Not us! We can not save ourselves! Not with all the works in the world!

    Comment by joshua james — May 17, 2008 @ 7:43 am

  2. Joe’s teaching here rejoices my heart. His words and heart are just filled and overflowing with love for our brethren who are living lives that make them appear as no different from the goats and thinking they are still sheep no matter what they do.

    Joshua above thinks he is honouring Jesus by insisting that only Jesus saves leaving Jesus to force us obey God whether we want to or not. This is not something evident in anyone’s life I know nor in the church ever at any time not to mention that this violates everything the Bible says of the LORD.

    Too bad for Joshua. Oh that he would love the Lord enough to seek to please Him instead of being consumed by thoughts of his own eternal destiny. I would serve and love the Lord if there were no Eternity for me. He is worth it and when you love Him truly, you needn’t worry about where you are going….you are already to some degree there in His presence on a daily basis.

    Comment by Dorothy — June 9, 2008 @ 10:31 am

  3. Once saved always saved is a license to sin and a counterfeit version of “grace” that subtley replaces the Cross of Christ. God’s Word testifies of this again and again!

    First of all, I would like to start out on common ground with the typical OSAS proponent. I’m sure we can both agree 100% that a “disciple of Christ” is a true believer. What else can a “disciple” be? Disciple means student or follower. Thus, a disciple of Christ would not be someone who “was never saved to begin with”. The OSAS pet verse: John 10:27-28 clearly says that “His sheep FOLLOW Him” so by their OWN adherence to this verse a “follower” is a born again Christian, right? It couldn’t be someone who “was never saved to begin with” especially not if Jesus Himself called them a “disciple!!” So with that in mind…………

    OSAS TEACHERS SAY:
    The “conditional security” group holds that it is possible to simply walk away and turn your back on God. To choose to stop following Jesus and that causes the loss of salvation. That the true believer can do this is an impossibility, and is in direct opposition to biblical teaching. —Not so!!

    THIS IS WHAT GOD’S WORD SAYS:
    “From this time many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him (Jn. 6:66). (They were saved disciples who fell away). By your saying that this “is in direct opposition to biblical teaching” you are essentially calling Jesus a liar! There is no way you can twist John 6:66 into “well THOSE ‘disciples’ were never saved to begin with”. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? DO YOU HAVE DIVINE KNOWLEDGE? THEN YOU DON’T KNOW. (Your whole doctrine is based on a faulty premise!)

    OSAS TEACHERS SAY (and only interpret partial truth to God’s Word):

    - – “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.” JN 10:27-28 JUST HOW DOES THAT NEGATE THEIR OWN FREE WILL OF WALKING AWAY FROM HIM? JESUS DOES NOT FORCE ANYONE TO FOLLOW HIM. I can choose chocolate or vanilla and I can choose God or self! God does not save us by turning us into marionette puppets! He wants us to CHOOSE Him and choosing Him is a DAILY THING.
    And as stated earlier, this verse- John 10:27-28 applies to HIS SHEEP who OBEY/FOLLOW HIM, not those who give Him lip service in church before men and go home and live like the world. TO FOLLOW AND OR BELIEVE ON MEANS TO OBEY!! HOW CAN YOU “FOLLOW” HIM IF YOU ARE DOING YOUR OWN THING, FOLLOWING THE CROWD, ACCEPTING THEIR PRAISE AND AREN’T OBEYING HIM WHETHER OR NOT IT’S THE POPULAR THING? NOTHING “SNATCHED” YOU OUT OF HIS HAND, YOU REMOVED YOURSELF FROM IT WHILE DECEPTIVELY BELIEVING YOU ARE “ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED”!! This is Satan’s biggest deception. That is why Jesus will say to many at the judgment: “Depart from Me, I never KNEW YOU!”

    GOD SAYS:
    “And He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that OBEY Him.” Hebrews 5:9 —What about those [MAJORITY OF] CHRISTIANS who disobey thinking they are “OSAS” and falsely believing that obedience to the Captain of their Salvation is “works”?

    Why can’t you preachers and proponents of “eternal security” just teach the WHOLE COUNSEL OF TRUTH instead of trying to hedge and shimmy around it?? (Could it be because you want to hang on to your pet sins, enjoy the praise of men instead of God and ease your conscience while doing so??)

    Eternal Security is found ONLY IN JESUS and BEING IN HIM is OBEYING HIM!! JOHN 15:6. “One sin” or 20 sins will not cause us to “lose our salvation” IF WE PRACTICE REGULAR REPENTANCE. If we say we have no sin we are LIARS and the truth is not in us!! REGULAR REPENTANCE and turning away from sin, error and fellowship with false teachers is the key to eternal security. You OSAS proponents imitate the tactics of the Devil by taking two FALSE extremes and pitting them against each other to make your faulty point of “OSAS” (Once saved always saved or One Sin Lost Again). NEither of these extremes is the truth and neither is located in the Word of God!

    Common sense tells you that you can’t maintain a relationship with a friend without APOLOGIZING WHEN YOU OFFEND THEM and the same is true with Jesus Christ. We don’t continue to have a real saving relationship with Him if we don’t say we’re sorry when we sin (REPENT) even “little” sins! No one says Christians are “sinless”, we just practice REPENTANCE instead of hiding behind a false doctrine of demons called OSAS! BY PRACTICING REGULAR REPENTANCE WE GROW SPIRITUALLY (instead of growing self-righteously)! WHY CANT YOU JUST TEACH THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD’S WORD?? WITHOUT HOLINESS NO ONE WILL SEE HIM!

    You can’t have your cake and eat it to. It’s a law of nature and a law of God. John 15:6 IS ETERNAL SECURITY. Abide in the Vine and you are secure, don’t abide and you wither (die spiritually) and YOU GO TO HELL if you don’t REPENT! SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS HARSH. Fellowship in a “church” with false brethren is not abiding in the Vine. It’s plain enough for a child to grasp. Go to church on Sunday and Wednesday and live like the rest of the world the rest of your time, falsely believing in and relying on the manmade, demon inspired doctrine called OSAS to “save you” and you will most certainly “FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION”: GOD SAID IT RIGHT HERE: “. . . be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and FALL from your secure position” (2 Pet. 3:17). There it is in BLACK AND WHITE. You cannot deny it. Lawlessness is unrepentant sin. So is lying and false teaching! I don’t mean to be unloving but I’m so sick and tired of this false doctrine that is nothing more than a veiled license to sin and an “ear tickler” to sooth the consciences of wicked religious, church going, PHONY HYPOCRITES, no matter how good they make it sound! It turns the grace of Jesus into LEWDNESS or LICSENCE TO SIN(Jude 3,4) IT HAS NEARLY RUINED THE CHURCH!! A half truth is STILL A LIE.

    Abiding in and obeying Jesus Christ is the only way one can have “eternal security” AND IT IS NOT “WORK”. THE “WORK” Paul was speaking of was works of the Old Testament Law. James did not contradict him when he said “faith without WORKS IS DEAD.” James was speaking of the “works of obedience” which is REQUIRED OF ALL BELIEVERS. Maintaining humilty and practicing regular repentance before Him because we know we don’t do it perfectly is also a MUST. All have their own free will to choose to remain IN HIM or go their own way. God does not want robots who are “magically” forced to follow Him for all eternity.
    “You are THAT ONE’S SERVANT whom you OBEY, whether of SIN leading to death, or RIGHTEOUSNESS leading to eternal life. Romans 6:16 YOU HAVE A CHOICE. EVE HAD A CHOICE. THE FALLEN ANGELS HAD A CHOICE. That ONE VERSE pulverizes and refutes the false doctrine of OSAS along with James 5:19. 2 Pet 2:20, Romans 11:20 AND Heb 10:26. God does not contradict His Plain WORD with 4 or 5 ambiguous verses read OUT OF CONTEXT that false teachers use to support their license to sin: OSAS. And the previous verses and others verses in the Bible are not “for the Jews only”. This is another blatant lie of Satan so the the religious pharisees can justify their own unrighteousness. Either God is lying or those who teach OSAS outside of John 15:6 ARE LYING. Both cannot be true.

    Pastors and Teachers will be held to a much higher standard and their judgment will be VERY SEVERE if they continue to teach this horrible heresy! Please stop twisting God’s truth into a manmade doctrine to avoid offending fellow goats and hypocrites who would have their “cake and eat it to.” We are to DIE TO OUR FLESH and surrender this life for the world to come, as Jesus taught! If that means giving up our reputation with the high minded church crowd than so be it!

    The CROSS OF CHRIST must be taken up by each individual believer, without it, their is no “OSAS”. Matt 10:38 GOD SAID IT, not me! AND YOU WILL BE HATED BY ALL FOR MY NAME’S SAKE, BUT HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END, SHALL BE SAVED. MATTHEW 10:22 Salvation is a process. “Believing” is not a one hit wonder. Believing is FAITH plus OBEDIENCE otherwise it is the faith of demons “who believe and shudder”. The Biblical defintion of “believe” is CLING TO, FOLLOW and OBEY!

    OSAS IS A WIDE,EASY AND UNOFFENSIVE PATH THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ONE TO TAKE UP HIS CROSS. JESUS SAID THE PATH WAS NARROW AND DIFFICULT. EITHER HE IS LYING OR THOSE WHO TEACH OSAS ARE TEACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL AND FALSE GRACE.

    HE WHO SPEAKS TRUTH DECLARES RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    “When I say unto the wicked, thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but HIS BLOOD WILL I REQUIRE AT THINE HAND.” Ezekial 3:18

    “THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE.” Ezekial 18:20

    “When the righteous turneth AWAY (free will/choice) from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he LIVE (OSAS??) ALL HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT HE HATH DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED: IN HIS TRESPASS THAT HE HATH TRESPASSED, AND IN HIS SIN THAT HE HATH SINNED, IN THEM HE SHALL DIE.” Ezekial 18:24

    EZEKIAL IS NOT “OLD TESTAMENT LAW! OR ONLY FOR THE JEWS.” EZEKIAL IS ONE OF GOD’S PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE!

    “HEED THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE.” 2 Peter 3:2 Either God LIED in His Word or OSAS IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

    Comment by Lynn D. — June 11, 2008 @ 6:43 pm

  4. When asking why OSASers believe this I encountered interesting information from Dr. Stanley’s website and history. He came upon this doctrine in this thinking at a time when he was struggling with fear of losing his salvation. It met an emotional need in his life. But it did NOT come out of a study of the Bible nor typical revelation of the its meaning by the Holy Spirit as seen, for example in the life of Martin Luther whose experience saw him reading the text and having it speak suddenly and very loudly to him personally. (I am sure all true believers have had this happen at one time or another when reading the Word.) Stanley was afraid and found that if he chose to believe he could never lose his salvation he needn’t be afraid. This is definately coming from a man made souce (at best) and definately not from a revelation of scripture.

    He then went on to find the scripture to match his much-comforting theory. This is probably why they cling to it emotionally. To let it go means to be obligated to actively follow the Lord instead of sitting back and enjoying the ride assured of the eternal destiny. Too bad so many do not realize that God is not obligated to make choices according to our theory but is always true to His ways and word. In other words, just because they think it is so does not mean it is so.

    Comment by Dorothy — June 15, 2008 @ 9:48 am

  5. Oh I am so happy that people started this thread. First if Dorothy ever comes back to this video. Please “not too bad for Josh!”. God truly blesses me daily. I have been a Christian since 1983. I was born again the Monday after Thanksgiving. Let me give a few more thought provoking questions. Can a person be born again twice? Does not God do the choosing (saving)? Where does faith come from? Oh the religious world, always trying to get credit for something they did? Always saying “if only I do this (work) or that work” He will save me. Man always wants to take credit! When people want to enslave a person they give them this doctrine that Joe is teaching. Praise God, I am free in Christ Jesus. His finished work on the cross was enough to paid the price in full. No man or Pharisee will dangle the carrot of religion over me. May God show you the truth? Then you can be free. Not free to sin! If you keep working for you salvation, then Christ died for nothing!

    Also I wonder why people have to shout. You know caps! I hardly think this is fitting for a Christian!

    Comment by joshua james — June 28, 2008 @ 6:05 am

  6. Joshua,

    What does the Bible say?

    Jeff

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 29, 2008 @ 12:23 am

  7. Joshua,

    You apparently believe that a true believer can never fall away. So, I am wondering if you can explain why the writer of the verses below used phrases like, “if you continue” or “if you hold fast”?

    Col 1:23 “…if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

    Heb 3:6 “…but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

    Heb 3:14 “For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end…”

    From a logics perspective, the use of the word “if” indicates that there is more than one possible outcome. What is the purpose of making a conditional statement (”if”) if there is no possibility of each of the outcomes being true (e.g., “continuing” or “not continuing”, etc.)? If there were only one outcome possible, then the conditional statement is frivolous.

    Comment by Jake — July 1, 2008 @ 4:49 am

  8. In reference to Joshua’s comment “I wonder why people have to shout, you know caps it’s not fitting for a Christian…” Um, Tell Jesus it wasn’t fitting for Him to shout at the money changers in the temple for turning it into a den of thieves. Tell Him also it wasn’t “Christian” for Him to take a whip to them and knock over their tables. Tell John the Baptist it wasn’t “Christian” for him to call the hypocrites a “brood of vipers.” Tell the Apostle Paul it wasn’t Christian for him to “rebuke them sharply”. Maybe if you and all the OSASers would concentrate on the Word of God and WHAT IT SAYS instead of pointing out my righteous indignation at the blasphemous, false teaching of OSAS, which calls my Savior a liar, you would realize why I’m “zealous for the truth” as the Bible says that all true believers should be. If you love Someone deeply and lies are being told about that Someone, which slander His Words and make Him a liar, it should make you VERY ZEALOUS TO CORRECT THE SLANDERERS. “Beware, lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION.” 2 Pet 3:17 You can’t “Fall” if you “were never saved to begin with.”
    A ZEALOUS Servant of Jesus Christ
    Lynn D.

    Comment by Lynn D. — July 11, 2008 @ 8:31 pm

  9. For those of you who are offended by my zeal for the truth, please forgive me. It is not my intention to offend anyone, however, Jude 3,4 clearly commands all true Christians to “contend earnestly for the faith” and I have been fighting against Satan’s false grace doctrine (OSAS) ever since the Holy Spirit baptized me and clearly showed me the truth in God’s Word. The truth is crystal clear, however, the OSAS crowd listens to preachers and teachers rather than searching the Scriptures for themselves (Acts 17:11) and then when they do look in the Scriptures, it is through the “lens” of what the preachers have already told them! We are instructed in the Bible to “become a fool that we might become wise” and that means to allow God to teach us Himself, not seminary trained theologians and televangelists.

    Once Saved Always Saved is surely Satan’s greatest masterpiece. This doctrine claims that one can be “in Christ,” while willingly dead in “trespasses and sins. ” This doctrine openly tramples the blood of the Savior underfoot and calls it “grace”. It is rooted in unbelief, seeing that they deny that Christ has any power to deliver the believer FROM his sins, here and now. The Bible tells us that Jesus came to destroy the work of the devil, and to save His people from their sins, not in their sins Matt 1:1. A Savior who cannot live up to his promises to deliver us from our sins in this life cannot be depended upon to deliver us after our death! I am uncomfortably confident that at the consummation of time, it will be revealed that this sole doctrine alone will have populated the regions of hell far more than all other false teachings put together.
    This doctrine promotes SELF-righteousness, not godliness, and removes all motives to abstain from sin……only to HIDE it. It completely contradicts hundreds of clear verses in Scripture and it boasts in the perseverance of the “saints” ….(sinners!), while it believes in no saint but one, that is, Jesus, and neglects to persevere. So in essence, these “Christians” follow and imitate Satan and his false and haughty religious spirit, yet expect the Holy Spirit to “lead” them into sin while Jesus Christ saves them and God the Father calls them “His children”!!
    For whom ye yield yourselves, servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey.” (Rom. 6:16) If we are compelled, therefore, to yield ourselves servants to sin, and be subject to Satan’s power, insomuch that we cannot help but obey him, and really have “no choice” in the matter, then our free agency, our volition, is destroyed; and to make matters worse, if this is true, then that would mean that the devil has more power than God. Satan can make us disobey God, but alas, God, who according to OSAS “takes away our free will and makes it His will” cannot make us disobey Satan! What a pathetic “God” that is!! The devil compels us to be sinners, but God cannot compel us to be righteous, even though He has made our will His will!! Can you see the absolute absurdity? If not, Satan has blinded your mind for sure! –2 Cor 4:4
    It is manifestly improper to assemble with “believers” who see nothing desirable in holiness. (2 Jn 9:11) [Without holiness, NO ONE will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14] Was Jesus lying when He inspired these Words? Do you see any “exception clauses” here? Anyone who can say (or show by their actions), “God does not require me to be holy”………. cannot be a true born again, believer in Christ. He or she is following ANOTHER christ, which is a FALSE christ! The doctrine of Eternal Security is not the “Gospel” as the wolves teach, it is a theological argument invented by John Calvin (who was a mass murderer). It is not a Biblical doctrine. It is a theological invention, NO WHERE to be found in the Holy Bible, (other than Satan’s original lie to Eve in Genesis). If Eternal Security is true, all the fallen angels, the Devil, Hitler, and every human that’s ever lived will be saved since there “was nothing they could do to be saved and nothing they could do to lose it”. This is teaching so incredibly absurd it defies basic common sense, even if one is devoid of the Spirit! It would be laughable if it weren’t so deadly to so many, who follow it’s broad, easy path to destruction.
    The only way that Once Saved, Always Saved can be attached to select Bible verses is to “read it into” them. It is an extra-Biblical, external philosophy, seeking Biblical sanction. People are “educated into” OSAS, just as truly as atheists are “educated into” atheism, camelites are educated into baptismal regeneration, Catholics are educated into Mary-ism, Mormons are educated into the “Angel Morani-ism”, Pentecostals are educated in “tongue-ism”, etc. The Bible is clear, abide in Christ, THE WORD, John 1:1, practice repentance and righteousness (not willful sin), obey the leading of the Holy Spirit and endure to the end and you shall be saved. John 15:6 and Matt 10:22 You can’t have it both ways. “Once Saved, Always Saved” completely contradicts the plain Word of God and MAKES JESUS A LIAR. I’m sorry to “shout” but this doctrine is very offensive to me because I’m very jeolous for the Truth of my Savior!! Christians are told to “preach the Word” 2 Tim 4:2. (I’m sure Joshua has never heard a preacher shout! That wouldn’t be “Christian” would it?)
    IF WE DENY HIM, HE WILL DENY US. 2 TIM 2:12
    IF I REGARD INIQUITY IN MY HEART, THE LORD WILL NOT HEAR. PSALM 66:18
    AND THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST’S HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH IT’S PASSIONS AND DESIRES. GAL 5:24
    SIN NO MORE, LEST A WORSE THING COME UPON THEE. JOHN 5:14
    LET HIM WHO THINKS HE STANDS TAKE HEED, LEST HE FALL. 1 COR 10:12
    WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. PHIL 2:12

    Comment by Lynn D. — July 12, 2008 @ 7:32 am

  10. AWESOME TEACHING!!!
    Yes, I am shouting Josh! LOL

    Lynn, kudos for your diligence in studying to show yourself approved and for rightly dividing the word of truth.
    OSAS is the greatest LIE ever told and I have left my church because God opened my eyes to their heretical, “easy believism” doctrine of demons.
    WHY can’t pastors today just take God at His Word?
    I guess JUDE told us why. Clouds without water, spots in our love feasts…. having not the Spirit—–OUCH! Oh, and let’s not forget, they are greedy for gain and as my former pastor said- they are trying to appeal to the masses.
    I say: Galatians 1:10 to that.

    GOD BLESS YOU ALL WHO REFUTE THIS DIABOLICAL DOCTRINE FROM HELL.
    In Christ.
    Diane Couture

    Comment by Diane — October 5, 2008 @ 2:16 pm

  11. The doctrine of eternal security sure does sound good on paper… too bad it’s not parchment paper! The Church needs to wake up from the nightmare of OSAS… It truly is a salvation issue, obeying God is not “works”, but a requirement of a true Jesus follower.

    Comment by Jeff — October 5, 2008 @ 10:05 pm

  12. The problem with this OSAS is from which perspective you come from. As a Monergist I believe in the Preservation of the Saints and in no way would ever believe that man can lose his salvation. However, As good as Joe Schimmel is regarding many doctrines he is woefully ignorant on this one.

    First, I would like to say that Arminianism could easily go either way in regards to having the ability to lose your salvation or OSAS seeing that Arminianism makes man the ultimate decider of things. However, monergism gives ALL the glory to God and his divine sovereignty.

    Let us look at a few scriptures that support the Preservation of the Saints.
    John 6:37-39

    “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
    “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
    “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”

    John 10:28

    I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

    Rom. 8:29–30

    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Romans 8:33-35

    Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

    Eph. 1:3–14

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
    In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    I could give more but for brevity sake I think this is pretty solid. However, let me show you who the backsliders (so-called) or the fallen away (so-called) really are.

    I John 2:19

    They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

    In other words, they never “really” were saved in the first place.

    Kyle

    Comment by Kyle — March 7, 2009 @ 1:30 pm

  13. Kyle,

    Please give me a day or two and I’ll give you a full response.

    3/11/09
    I actually wrote most of my response a few days ago, but have been thinking more about this, because this is so important. This morning, I got a new idea as how to better present this information. I may need a few days yet.

    3/14/09
    As we see the fall of the U.S. right before our very eyes, this issue for me is even more woefully tragic and disheartening, because “once saved, always saved” (and its “we don’t have to be right with people and God to go to heaven” relatives) is at the core of the problem.

    This is The Greatest Deception, the greatest doctrinal tragedy that exists today—the greatest twisting of Paul’s words—missing the main point of what Christianity is.

    Christianity is relationship, right relationships—not some mathematical formula that ignores the heart of what Paul had to say, time after time, letter after letter.

    How is it even possible to watch this video and call Joe Schimmel “woefully ignorant?” Joe cites many verses that even by themselves totally refute OSAS, and he understands Kyle’s arguments fully. He’s read “Life in the Son” and “Elect in the Son” by Robert Shank, etc., which I would suggest OSAS adherents read. I’ve talked with Joe about this. He understands the Calvinist perspective fully. It’s not like you’re illuminating him in any way here.

    But how do we break out of this deception when it’s so deeply emotionally embraced that many have a hard time even hearing what Joe and others have to say?

    Maybe The Greatest Deception bringing us into The Greatest Depression will help. Maybe we’ll finally get it.

    “It’s hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Maybe we’ve been too rich. Perhaps loosing everything will help us gain what really matters in the long run—the kingdom of heaven!

    I have written most of the scriptural response to this charge against Joe, but I’m still pondering this whole thing and will present my full response soon. Much of the problem is due to the way Paul’s letters are read. Systematic theology can be a useful hermeneutic tool, but Biblical theology should be the main method, reading the texts the way they are meant to be read.

    Sincerely,

    jeff

    3/21/09

    If anyone is still awaiting my response, I apologize. It’s been rough this past week. I must be over the target, or something. I need some relaxing quiet time to do this correctly. I truly have long ago written everything except for 1 John and the something special I’d like to do with Ephesians.

    I still think about this every day, and hope to do this soon.

    Jeff

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — March 10, 2009 @ 12:31 pm

  14. LYNN D., DIANE COUTURE, AND JEFF FENSKE~ YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME IN THE WILL OF THE LORD!!!!! WOW…IF YOU GUYS EVER GET SOME TIME COULD YOU PLEASE COME AND FIGHT FOR TRUTH ON ‘ChristiaNet’ BLOG SITE. THERE ARE BLOGS SUCH AS ‘CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATON’, ‘OSAS’ BLOG, ETERNAL SECURITY BLOG, CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SEAL BLOG ETC.

    WE COULD USE YOUR AMAZING ZEALOUSNESS AND TALENTS FOR REACHING COUNTLESS PEOPLE WITH THE TRUTH OF GOD. I AM TRYING TO ‘FIGHT THE FIGHT’ ON THERE, BUT THE CALVINIST TEACHINGS ON THERE ARE NUMEROUS, AND WE NEED MORE ZEALOUS FIGHTERS FOR TRUTH LIKE YOU GUYS!!

    GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK. I HOPE TO SEE YOU ON ‘ChristiaNet’ BLOGS SOON!!!

    ANNE

    Comment by Anne — April 25, 2009 @ 6:42 pm

  15. Joashua is correct, and on this matter of who choses whom, my dear friend and bro in Christ Joe Schimmel is incorrect. It is not a matter of OSAS, or a matter of treating Christ’s blood as a common thing and using His grace as a license for sin and still thinking oneself to be a Christian – this is not what Scripture teaches, nor what Calvin believed. It is not of him who wills, or choses, but of Yhwh in Christ who calls and chooses and will not lose; the question that predestination asks is, “are you truly in Christ in the first place?” If one be truly in Christ, and has passed from death to life in Christ and thus is one that the Father has given His Son, those of whom it is impossible for the Son to lose even one, then the matter at hand is the validity of ones salvation in the first, and last place. Those who believe Calvin’s doctrines to be the same as Christ’s doctrines on the mater of TULIP, barring of course those loosely knitted “hyper-Calvinists”, believe that the life of a true Christian will be displayed in the increasing manifestation of a life of holiness and departure from sin, being worked out of a fear of God and sorrow for sin that worketh repentance, and such repentance that leads to eternal life, which is Christ. To say that Christ can lose even one the Father has given Him, is to call Christ Himself a liar, and to deny the Gospel of Jesus. Hence, it is not a matter of someone losing something, it is a matter of whether they ever had it (eternal life) in the first place. Only those that finish the race and run it according to the rules will receive the crown of life. Christ told us that we must be doers of the Word and not hearers only, or else we deceive ourselves. He also told us to “go and sin no more”… He has said that if we say we know Him, and continue to sin, we have neither known Him or seen Him, and the Truth be not in us, but on the contrary, we are liars.

    To say a Born Again son of the Son of God can lose his or her salvation is a lie from the pit of hell, and a mockery of Christ Himself, and an aversion of the Gospel and is contrary to Scripture and to the very person and Words of Christ Himself; it is also to call Christ a liar and a fool, and to say a person can be tried twice for the same crime, when once they have been acquitted of all charges and their case dismissed.

    To say we choose Christ is to be opposite of Scripture; it is the same as saying a dead man can chose life, or can raise himself from the dead; it is a lie and it teaches that Christ’s work was not needed nor sufficient, and it is at the very heart of it, a develish appeal to ones pride; to think more highly of oneself than we aught, to say the least.

    May all who hear His voice and have been confused on this issue be hereby encouraged and given clarity in the Holy Spirit, and may each of us walk this earth in holiness and righteousness, not to earn our salvation, but in evidence that we Truly have seen and know Him in the first place, for the sake of the elect, and to the glory of Elyon in Jeshua.

    To Christ Alone be the Glory and Honor,

    gator

    Comment by gator — July 2, 2009 @ 3:03 pm

  16. Gator,

    This is what we’re taught. “This is all disinfo,” the way it is spun to deceive people into thinking we can be “in Christ” without really being in Christ.

    Please investigate what the Bible really says: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way.

    It may be particularly helpful to see what Paul actually says in Romans 8 about who really is “in Christ.” Consider what Romans 8 really says verses what we’ve been taught it says, and then consider that this has been done to us with many other scriptures as well.

    You also may be interested to see how John Calvin really lived in my Calvin didn’t get it posts.

    We’ve been led astray for generations, much of this starting with Luther.

    “It’s time to smell the roses,” I believe God is saying.

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — July 3, 2009 @ 2:44 am


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