One Can Happen

January 13, 2008

(video) Dan Corner Interview: The Believer’s Conditional Security

 DAN CORNER Conditional Security TV Interview Pt 1/3

Uploaded on Jan 2, 2009 http://www.dancorner.com

Dan Corner: The Believer’s Conditional Security: Eternal Security Refuted

Conditional security TV interview with Dan Corner. The Believer’s Conditional Security.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/da…
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org
http://www.noeternalsecurity.com

DAN CORNER Conditional Security TV Interview Pt 2/3

DAN CORNER Conditional Security TV Interview Pt 3/3

Related:

Dan Corner’s 801-page book: “The Believer’s Conditional Security”

How Many Will Be in Heaven? How Many Find the WAY? Only 1 in 40 — 2.5%!?!!

[Video] Joe Schimmel: The Great Deception—Once Saved, Always Saved

Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? (what the Bible really says about who goes to heaven)

Dan Corner: What’s wrong with today’s gospel — Eternal security is false, no matter how popular! Actual audio quotes from big name teachers

(video) Dan Corner: True Grace Vs False Grace — Charles Stanley’s security in sin: “You cannot out-sin the grace of God” Vs Jesus: “He who endures to the end will be saved”

(video) Dan Corner: Prodigal Son — “My son was dead, and is alive again! He was lost, and is found!”

[Beautiful cartoon] The Prodigal Son: Life in the Son can be lonely at times, but it’s still the best life

(audio) Dan Corner: “If you’re lusting in your heart, you are an adulterer, and you won’t inherit the kingdom”

John Calvin Had Servetus Burned at the Stake for Having Doctrinal Differences — His Ashes Cry Out!

(audio) Dan Corner: The parable of the sower — “Bringing forth fruit is a salvation issue”

(video) The Grace Changers: Calvinist Mark Driscoll Exposed — “Mark Driscoll’s popularity is proof that we are in a deep dark church apostacy now!”

What about the thief on the cross? He wasn’t required to do works | ‘Sweaty ministry’ VS “Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me…”

Father of Calvinism, Augustine’s Prayer To Mary For His Salvation

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175 Comments »

  1. Thanks for posting. Hope this could be download. A lot of christians are too lazy and intimidated with controversies like eternal security, OSAS etc. But a searching heart always persevere to find what is true. I don’t regret it. Mr. Dan, i know is widely ridiculed and ignored and it doesn’t suprise me. Truth bothers many people in the religious establishment and it’s always been the case when somebody blew their covers. Many christians i believe will fall because of false security. The warning passages in scripture are lost to twisted interpretations and are downplayed all the time. Discerning christians must perservere, fight the good fight and never give up. Life is short. Too much distraction is on the way. Be sure you are the one to make it in the end. let’s keep running this difficult path ahead. let’s leave this sad, depressing world and receive that crown God will give to us on that place. Bless you all.

    Comment by jie4him — February 16, 2008 @ 5:38 pm | Reply

  2. there really good colors in the video, however, i think it’s a little to long.

    Comment by samlouis — February 24, 2008 @ 5:50 pm | Reply

  3. Dan Corner states that Scripture gives at least 18 examples of people who lost their salvation. Perhaps he could give at least one example if one exists.

    The comment by samlouis was rather humorous: “there really good colors in the video, however, i think it’s a little to long”. I certainly agree with sam! :-)

    Phil

    Comment by Phillip M. Evans — May 5, 2008 @ 5:17 pm | Reply

  4. Dear Phil,

    The 18 examples are probably in his 801-page book, which I’ve now linked, above.

    I also put up a link to Joe Schimmel’s excellent message, which I just posted, after thinking about your reiteration of the comment about the above video being too long. Schimmel’s presentation is full of life. And he covers a lot of ground that I don’t in “Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures.” This is very serious.

    Regarding the 18 examples of people who have lost their salvation, Dan Corner sometimes uses examples from the old covenant as if these apply directly to the new covenant. I don’t think this is a safe practise, for once the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost to now indwell those who have been born-again, our ability to overcome sin has increased dramatically, but so has our responsibility.

    Jesus introduced this great change in Matthew 5 in the Sermon on the Mount; though, people didn’t have the *grace* to fully walk in this until “the Spirit of truth has come” (John 14-16).

    For example, Jesus said: “YOU HAVE HEARD that it was said to those OF OLD, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ BUT I SAY that anyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her IN HIS HEART. …for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.”

    Jesus upped the ante, not lowered it, as Hebrews 10:26-39 also clearly shows. Verses 28-29 only:

    “A man who disregards MOSES’ LAW dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. HOW MUCH WORSE PUNISHMENT, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of THE COVENANT with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of GRACE?”

    Things are a lot different today, but not in the way that is commonly taught across America—that it’s either hard or impossible to lose our salvation—and thus our decline?

    But the really good news is that conversely, once the truth gets out about who really goes to heaven, ONE Can Happen (Jesus’ heart-cry in John 17)! And we can have the best times of our lives—one with Christ and each other!!!

    Freedom!

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — May 6, 2008 @ 3:22 am | Reply

  5. Have anyone of you ever read a book “freedom of the will” by Jonathan Edwards? I was raised in arminian oriented church but after finding out what arminians teach and mean by freedom of will and all their wolrdview I must admit that till that time I feel so sorry for anyone who can believe in such ridiculous theories based on Thomas Aquinas philosophy. And all that never ending controversy is going on an on because none will ever come to understanding of the Bible believing in Aquinas philosophy. And this is basic philosophy of this world. And that’s the root of misunderstanding.

    And I should say that modern idea of once saved forever saved and live like a devil (I think most of american christianity) is as much damnable as arminian/pelagian theology.

    One more thing. I’ve read the book written by Daniel Corner on the topic pf security of salvation. And I don’t know but as for me it seems that if I want to prove myself more effectively I must pour all kind of filth on the man whom I appose… Is it a christian way in america? I know that every man has flaws but for example I’m not necessary agree on everything with Spurgeon or MacArthur but I know that God did huge things trough these man so what kind of license do I have to pour a filth on them??? Isn’t it the way devil accuses and blames every christian??? Plus I’ve tried to confirm some things that were said about Augustine or Calvin and came to conclusion that many things are pure speculations… God even prohibits ill saying toward devil and how dare anyone to pour filth on the heads of Gods servants even if they were wrong in some instances?

    PS: Sorry for my english but it really grieves me that such books are being translated in my language…

    Comment by Daniel — June 6, 2008 @ 5:15 pm | Reply

  6. Dear Daniel,

    I think I understand where you are coming from regarding Dan Corner’s too often unnecessary combative statements, which is the main reason I don’t post more of his work. This has been saddening to me, and I actually discussed this with him once.

    We have to be extremely careful to realize who the real enemy is, and to always love even those who are teaching doctrines that are sending probably millions to hell, unaware that they’re in deep trouble with God by not living holy lives, by not abiding in Christ.

    This is very serious stuff—far more serious than I think most realize. This one doctrine, alone, may be the number one reason for the fall of America. And the “it’s impossible or nearly impossible to lose one’s salvation” preachers and radio stations are largely to blame. They’re actually putting people to sleep all across this land, so only a tiny percentage are really fighting the fight and actually winning the battle to keep ourselves in Christ and pure.

    I’m convinced that these teachers are in really big trouble with God. But those of us who are trying to expose this in order to help bring about change could be in big trouble too if we don’t walk in love, ourselves. And if you or anyone else feels that I’m not doing that enough in how I’m presenting material on either of my two sites, I would like to hear about it. For I want to be holy, and this is very difficult considering the fierce battle this is, and that there are precious people involved who are in ways on the wrong side, but pushing their agenda. And some have huge platforms through radio and TV.

    I think most people have almost no idea of the degree of hate aimed at those who are exposing this and other false doctrines that I believe are the number one cause for the whimping out of Christianity in America.

    I actually very much appreciate Dan’s willingness to take on this fight and not give up. He’s a brave man—incredibly so! Please pray POSITIVE prayers FOR him so he can be more effective in his work—for most of what he says is true regarding exposing the lie of OSAS. He’s not as good at teaching what real Christianity is supposed to be—how we are to actually live in Christ! Robert Shank does much better in this regard.

    His less caustic treatment of this subject can be found in his classic work, “Life in the Son” http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=6610912&show_all_cr=1&event=CFN#customer_reviews. Dan is too quick to emphasize its faults http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/shank.htm, which it has, but I think it’s mostly A GEM—and is written in a consistently loving tone!!! I think it’s a masterpiece; though, a bit too scholarly for some. It really puts the emphasis where it should be: we must abide in Christ, literally. This is Christianity.

    Isn’t it interesting that there aren’t more books on this subject out there? I think it’s because the Devil comes against OSAS exposers with everything he’s got. Because with the truth about who goes to heaven mostly hidden, he has a lot of ‘Christians’ where he wants them. If the truth about who goes to heaven http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/who-goes-to-heaven-scriptures really gets out there, we’ll have a glorious revival that will affect everyone, everywhere!! Can you imagine this?!!!

    And then people will realize that Dan has been their friend. He means well. I hope you can see this. OSAS and it’s-hard-to-lose-one’s-salvation really are heresies that are leading many astray into “He’ll Never Let Go”-sville [refuted here: http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/the-chief-pillar-of-eternal-security-osas-falls ]. The ‘church’ has been brainwashed into believing a lie by even the songs played on ‘Christian’ radio. Few actually take the time to study what the Bible really says about this crucial doctrine that they’re basing where they’ll spend eternity on.

    We MUST abide in Him. “Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.” This is fact.

    And the “be not deceived” warnings that never make airplay in word or songs are so aptly illustrated by Joe Schimmel in his “The Great Deception” teaching http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/joe-schimmel-the-great-deception%E2%80%94once-saved-always-saved. Joe also names the names of some of the “grace changers,” but I don’t sense that he’s attacking them, but rather the danger of their teaching.

    Daniel, thanks for bringing this important topic up. And may we all be holy, the lights we are meant to be in order for God’s love to shine through us to help heal this hurting land, so multiple millions who are currently heading in the wrong direction will spend eternity in heaven—resting in the glory of God—forever!!! All of us together!!

    Praise God!!!

    Jeff Fenske : )

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 7, 2008 @ 7:32 am | Reply

  7. Dan attacks wolves in sheeps clothing! He is not admonishing brothers in the faith, but false teachers that have supposedly studied the scriptures for years, yet they still spew un-biblical doctrines that are responsible for mis-leading thousands, if not millions. He is calling these false teacher out, as he is supposed to. Admonish a brother with love, but there wolves are not our brothers!

    Comment by D-train — July 17, 2008 @ 1:03 pm | Reply

  8. One would think a man who believes he can lose his salvation would temper his speech in fear of losing it through sins of his mouth. Obviously, Mr. Corner has different standards for other people than for himself – but then again, all hypocrites do.

    Comment by Maestroh — July 26, 2008 @ 9:57 am | Reply

  9. I am very familiar with the work and character of Dan Corner, and have yet to hear him “sin with the mouth.” I’m sure we all have much to learn in how to walk in humility and speak with wisdom, and surely Dan has his faults, but Dan is no hypocrite. He lives exactly what he teaches, and he cares enough about souls to take his own time and resources and sink them into the kingdom of God at any cost to himself. God bless him, I am happy to stand with him.

    Comment by Melissa — August 7, 2008 @ 7:26 am | Reply

  10. I really like most of his teachings. I think he is very firm and biblical on 99 percent of his teachings that I have encountered so far. You can tell he is a Berean i think is the word. I respect how he always seems to be ready to answer give an answer. I think another idea he should use if giving references to quotes of early (late 1st and early 2nd century christians). I mean at one time their was only like 15 ( not an exact number) christians. All had one belief no division on doctrine. Then it turned to 2 then 3 and now we have over 400 different ” christian” denominations.So sometimes if you are ever confused about anything I always first read the bible and see if I can come to a conclusion. I then look and see who backs it up and who refutes it and the verses they use. Then once I decide where I stand on the subject I like to look at what the early christians taught to see if what I believe the bible says is the same as them. Logically I feel it makes since because there was less than I believe around 15 or so denomanations before 120 A.D.
    But make the bible the one source that matters. The others just can help you out in studying it.

    Comment by Mitch — December 8, 2008 @ 12:37 pm | Reply

  11. Dan Corner is on the right track. Since believers are BEING judged by Jesus Christ as they live their respective lives, no one is really “saved” until they have been decided “qualified” by Jesus Christ. Therefore, salvation cannot be “lost” per se. God qualifications for the first resurrection are the same from Adam to the present: faith in God and His Son, the slain Lamb, demonstrated by obedience to God’s instructions for how to live life. Apart from this, no one can be said to be “in Christ”. Many mantras in mainstream Christianity are accepted as Biblical fact, when they are nothing more than vain traditions of men, primarily stemming from the councils of Rome down through the centuries. If one takes an honest look at scripture, God’s requirements become evident. The basic teaching of scripture is that obedience to God (to include believing on His Son, Jesus Christ) leads to eternal life, disobedience to God leads to death. This theme extends from Genesis to Revelation. James sums it up like this, “faith without works is dead”. John teaches that those who do not keep the commandments don’t really know God at all, I John 2:2-3. Jesus, in Revelation 2 and 3 gives stark warnings to the “church” to repent of some things or else be treated as his enemies along with the rest of the world.

    The bottom line is that much teaching in mainstream Christianity is simply not the truth. Therefore, many who THINK they qualify for the first resurrection are not and will be shocked when they realize that Jesus Christ does not know them. The qualifications for those who will rule and reign with Christ are spelled out clearly and simply in Revelation 14:12. There are two; those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Since most Christians ignore God’s instructions for how to live (to include the commandments, food laws, holy days, etc), most will NOT be in the first resurrection, and therefore be subject to the second death. However, since there are two harvests, not one as popularly taught, many will have an opportunity AFTER the thousand years are finished when they are resurrected to flesh and blood, having missed the first, better resurrection, to change their mind and obey God at that time, when Satan is “loosed for a season to deceive the world”. Many at this time who died apart from Christ will be saved, just as the holy days foreshadow. However, these will be “least” in the kingdom, the “greater” having served with Christ during the millennium as rulers and priests with him, which is what Matthew 5:19 refers to. The stick of Judah is the first resurrection. The stick of Joseph/Ephraim is the second harvest AFTER the millennium. (This is why Ephraim is NOT LISTED in Revelation 7, by the way.) THEN, both sticks will be joined as one. And so, all Israel (those whom God foreknew from before the foundations would be His) will be saved.

    (References: Duet. 28 compared with Rev. 16, Matt. 5:17-19, Matt. 19:17, Col. 2 (means the opposite of what most try and make it mean), Heb. 4:9, Ro. 3:31, Heb. 10:26-27, John 3:36, Matt. 7:21-23, Rev. 20:4-5, Rev. 14:12, Rev. 2-3, Rev. 18:4, Rev. 7, Ezekiel 37:1-17, John 7:37-38, Rev. 20:6, Rev. 22:14.

    Comment by Aaron — August 29, 2009 @ 1:45 pm | Reply

  12. Aaron,

    Thanks for commenting.

    I like how you worded your opening. Revelation 3:1-5 is particularly interesting in this regard. Only those who are dressed in white (because they haven’t soiled/defiled their garments) will not have their names removed from the Book of Life.

    But I wonder why you bring in the old covenant law as being necessary, when the NT says otherwise. “Now we have a better way by which we draw near to God, Abba Father.” Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.

    What’s up? Where do you get that we still have to be under the law? I have no idea how people still think this.

    I have written what I think is the definitive work on who goes to heaven. No one is able to refute it, which says a lot. Perhaps you would like to read it: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way.

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — August 29, 2009 @ 10:39 pm | Reply

  13. Sirs/Madams,

    Is there any ‘true’ born again Christian (according to the holy scriptures) that has exposited the false teachings of Orthodox Judaism and the abominable Zionist (so-called) Christians who support the evil crimes of the modern day Israel (which shouldn’t exist) and their crimes of genocide and murder and acts of terrorism.

    Phillip Jones

    Comment by Phillip Jones — January 17, 2010 @ 9:15 pm | Reply

  14. Phillip,

    You might be blessed to see my posts at my other site under my Israel category in which I mention Israel’s atrocities: http://tobefree.wordpress.com/category/israel-•-tobefree

    I also have many posts on the USA’s atrocities, which in my opinion is mainly why they (much of the world) hates us. It’s not because we’re free; it’s because we’re jerks! We absolutely don’t love many in the world as much as we love ourselves and Israel.

    What would Jesus do? Would Jesus condone torture, assassinations, extraordinary rendition, the overthrow of governments covertly, black ops, the post-9/11 wars, bombing civilians (now by remote control)? Should we also say drug running, as well as how we manipulate other countries in the ways that John Perkins has exposed?

    The list could go on and on, but most evangelical leaders in the US want to act like nothing is wrong, like it’s okay for the US and Israel to do all kinds of covert and reverse-Christian things.

    I don’t see how we can have a holy and really powerful revival in America until we repent of our warmongering: supporting our CIA and military and Israel’s Mossad and military no matter what, without Godly and ethical strings.

    I totally believe in self-defense, but the evil crimes these two governments commit are absolutely reprehensible — and I believe are disgusting to God. And ‘we’ just look the other way???

    And then when the world sees the ‘Christian church’ in America supporting these institutions 100%, without any scrutiny and moral hesitance, it’s no wonder they don’t want anything to do with the God we say we serve.

    Whatever happened to the Sermon on the Mount? “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God,” Jesus said.

    This isn’t just an ethical issue; it’s a salvation issue. We can’t be “children of God” if we’re not truly (in God’s eyes) peacemakers.

    Many evangelicals will be shocked into total despair when they die and see the absolute holy Judge face to face…. “Without holiness no man shall see God.” And this is real holiness, our holiness, not imputed holiness.

    From my article, Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way.

    …that we may have boldness on the day of judgment.

    1 John:

    2:28 Now, little children, remain in him, that when he appears, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    4:16 We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. 17 In this[,] love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.

    Phillip, you and I probably disagree on Israel’s right to exist, though. I believe it is God’s will for the country to exist, despite all of the shenanigans in how it came about. Much of its inception was probably God too.

    I believe in supporting Israel, but we’re not doing them any good by giving them all of the military hardware without putting ethical restraints on their use.

    We give them a blank check, so we are in part very much responsible for not just the atrocities our government commits, but theirs also.

    “It’s not by might nor power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord.”

    “Some trust in chariots, some in horses, but we will remember the Name of the Lord our God.”

    “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

    “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

    Power to the peaceful!

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — January 17, 2010 @ 10:17 pm | Reply

  15. Phillip,

    And I should add…

    One of the themes that defines modern day Israel — a theme that they even publicly display is:

    NEVER FORGET

    Which basically means NEVER FORGIVE.

    And this pretty much now defines America too — including the ‘church.’ How many evangelicals have actually forgiven the Muslims from their hearts? How many pastors preach that we should? How many pastors have forgiven…??

    And what’s worse is that 9/11 was mainly an inside job. The globalists needed “a new Pearl Harbor” so Americans would support their (Satan’s) preplanned wars that our men and women are waging, fully sanctioned by ‘Christians.’ Top architect explains why 9/11 buildings were brought down by controlled demolition and Al Qaeda didn’t have the technology or access to do it. Who did? Two months before the ELEVATOR MODERNIZATION PROJECT, Nick ROCKEFELLER predicted a 9/11-like event to trigger war!

    It appears to me that the Satanically led globalists have hijacked our CIA and military to help bring about the one-world government. Our wars are actually fighting regimes that would have stood up to globalism.

    But we call these countries our enemy.

    How reverse-Christian is so much of American Christianity today.

    But the good news is that we’re learning what to repent for and who to get right with. When this happens, God will give us grace. And how sweet the presence of the Lord will be in these last days for those who are right with Him and all people.

    ONE will happen — Jesus’ heart-cry for us in John 17!

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — January 17, 2010 @ 10:44 pm | Reply

  16. Maybe I misunderstand your conditional security position, but I find it hard to believe that any man can live a totally blameless life in every bit of Old Testament or New Testament law. Moses couldn’t, Peter couldn’t. What I mean is … how can you really be certain that you have done all you can to not break the all the commandments? Certainly there is something small or great in your heart or behavior that God will find offensive that you are totally unaware of. According to conditional security, if you are very careful to not break any commandment and somehow achieve this feat, but yet say a foul word or give into envy or lust moments before your death and have no chance to repeat, then you are absolutely doomed, since you sinned. Seems to oppose the absolute grace of our Lord, wouldn’t you agree?

    Comment by Anonymous — February 19, 2010 @ 11:44 am | Reply

  17. Dear Anonymous,

    Thanks for caring about yourself enough to be willing to ask this question. I really mean that. It’s amazing how few people have enough of whatever you have to be interested enough to know for sure….

    In my way of thinking, this doctrine is paramount. What could be more important? What could be worse than being taught we’re going to heaven even if we willfully lust and envy (which you mentioned and are both in Paul’s who-doesn’t-go list in Galatians 5), and then dying and seeing face to face Jesus the Judge, to see we’re going to spend forever and ever and ever in Hell!!

    I just had to find out for sure, especially after being warned in a dream almost 20 years ago. I’ll share with you some of what I’ve found. Have you seen my Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures… post? The New Testament is actually very clear. What seems to have happened is Luther and others misread what Paul said in his introductions, and then ran with that, basically shutting their eyes to what Paul said in the later chapters.

    And Luther and others haven’t seemed to realize that grace, according to Paul, meant not just what Jesus did for us, but how the Holy Spirit enables us to not walk in willful sin (such as those in Paul’s Galatians-5 list). I just posted an article on what the Greek word for grace really means, according to Paul’s way of thinking: The meaning of “Grace” (χαρις) in the Bible: It’s not what you think? — since you mentioned “grace.”

    The people you mentioned are all old covenant examples, including Peter. After Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit then lived inside of him, do we hear of him willfully sinning sins that lead to death?

    And look at Paul in the latter portion of Romans 7. He couldn’t not sin. But then he got the Holy Spirit and wow! He writes in Romans 8 about who the sons of God really are, and “there is therefore no condemnation in” who? Romans 8:1 (except in the NIV and some others), but it’s also in 8:4.

    Let’s consider lust, for example. Jesus in Mt. 5

    27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ 28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. 30 If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.

    Did He mean that? That we need to do whatever is necessary in order to not lust, so we can go to heaven?

    Almost 20 years ago, I was in a situation in which I got so discouraged that I let myself fall into the lust habit for a one or two week period, but only when I was watching TV at night.

    I had a dream in which I heard the gist of this Matthew-5 passage. And then I heard that I was in danger of going to hell. My immediate response was: “Jesus, you’re serious!”

    I knew Jesus’ words. Most ‘Christians’ do, I would think. Then why didn’t I take them seriously?

    For me, I started out on the right track, finding Hebrews 10:26-39 when I was reading the Bible on my own in high school. Those were glorious days. It was so easy to not sin. But then I got the idea from Hebrews 6 that it’s impossible to regain our salvation after we lose it. So I reasoned that then it must be really, really hard to lose one’s salvation. But I didn’t make sure that I really understood what was going on in Hebrews 6.

    Dan Corner has a good article on it here: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hebrews.htm

    After my dream, I realized I better study salvation more thoroughly, and what you see on this website is what I’ve found, looking at the issue from many angles. I have currently 52 posts that relate to this subject. (See the Who Goes to Heaven category in the pull-down menu near the top of the page)

    One of my posts How Many Will Be in Heaven? How Many Find the WAY? Only 1 in 40 — 2.5%?!! tells about Howard Pittman, a preacher who died and went to heaven over 30 years ago. He found out there that if everyone died, only 2.5% of the people would go to heaven. And the stats are probably worse now, since we have internet porn, the low-cut top epidemic and easy believism run amuck.

    I think that what’s happened in America is that the church has stopped becoming salt and light to such a degree that our country is now a cesspool of filth. It’s not just lust. Hate and anger and lying and unforgiveness….

    I don’t know exactly where God draws the line that we don’t want to be crossing over. But I know what the Bible says now and I don’t to be willfully sinning against God, willfully doing something that I know I’m not supposed to do. Because if I cross that line and feel guilty here, how much more guilt will I feel if I were to die and see Him face to face?

    We need to have confidence before God now so we’ll have confidence then, 1 John says. We need to be holy. We allowed America to become so depraved. Now, it’s harder to not sin. But what if many thousands would say, hey, let’s make sure we’re right with everyone we’ve hurt. Let’s make every effort to have a clean conscience before man and God (like Paul did). And let’s worship God together as the body of Christ.

    This would be the Third Great Awakening. God would show up and the filth on TV wouldn’t even be tempting.

    I believe the main problem in the church is doctrinal. There are other doctrines that are contributing to the dysfunction in the ‘church.’ I cover most of the key ones at this site. But OSAS is by far the worst abomination that has all but destroyed the church.

    Personally, I do believe that if I were to willfully lust, or lie, etc., I believe that is crossing the line into the danger zone. And if I don’t get out of there really quick (which in the case of lying, would mean getting right with the person I lied to), then I’m in big trouble with God. Who knows what would happen out there in the danger zone. What if we got hit by a meteorite that broke through the roof? We could die any moment.

    Part of the problem is that people don’t understand how demons operate, and how willfully sinning ‘Christians’ are full of demons that drive the sin, so that it is an addiction from which it feels like it’s impossible to break free. But once we go cold turkey from that sin, 100% not doing it, then the demons have no right to affect us in that area, and we can easily resist the devil and he’ll flee.

    But if we entertain just one thought that we shouldn’t, they have a right to come right back in and then drive the addiction. I don’t believe people like this are going to heaven unless they repent. I’ve been there and could easily go back if I give into temptation. But it’s not that hard to stay free once one totally breaks free. And once the body of Christ becomes ONE with each other in Christ, it will be easy, I believe.

    Now, we have to be very careful. And we shouldn’t do sins of omission either. For example, if we knew God wanted us to do something, but we willfully and consciously did the opposite, we may be putting ourselves at risk for these other sins to overtake us. “Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God,” Paul said.

    We need to return back to our First Love. We need to trust that He is not like any earthly father. He will never let us down if we choose to follow Him. But when hardly anyone is sincerely following Him we have to be that much more diligent, because it’s a lonely road when we can’t even find one church that teaches the truth and who’s leaders are walking the walk.

    We dug our own hole, here in America. We had it so good! Whatever happened to the Timmy-and-Lassie-type shows? That’s what I watched when I was a child.

    The title of this website is: ONEcanhappen. Jesus prayed that we’d be ONE in Him, just as He was one with His Father. “Then the world will know.” (John 17)

    We can build the real thing. We can have real revival, but I think this will only fully happen after we get our doctrine and our goals right, according to the Bible.

    We can soar in Christ, together, no matter what happens down the road during these troubled times. Jumping fully into God (embracing His ways and shunning evil) is not only possible, it’s the only way to have real joy now and eternal life in heaven.

    We can overcome, just like Peter and Paul did, once they were filled with the Holy Spirit. But if we willfully sin sins that lead to death, we’ll lose our peace, joy and salvation, if we continue down compromise road.

    This life is so short. We only have this one shot. ONE can happen!

    That’s my take.

    FREEeeeeeeeeeeeeee———-DOM!!!!!!!!

    Jeff Fenske : )

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 20, 2010 @ 2:32 pm | Reply

    • Thank you Jeff for your reply. If I may continue to explore your position and ask a few more question ….

      In Galatians Chapter 2, where Paul rebukes Peter for getting caught up in the trend to reject grace in favor of life under the law and where Paul corrects him… Wasn’t Peter, at the time, guilty of sin (since he rejected the grace of our Lord) and had the meteorite fallen on him at that moment, would he be enjoying heaven and fellowship with the Lord today?

      Thank you.

      Comment by Dave — February 22, 2010 @ 10:00 am | Reply

    • Dave,

      I’m glad you picked up on the meteorite possibility. Here are three real-world examples from my other freedom site.

      http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2010/02/14/always-gotta-be-ready-meteorite-hits-mexico-leaving-30-meter-crater-impact-was-so-massive-it-broke-windows-in-homes-many-kilometers

      http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/always-gotta-be-ready-man-killed-when-engine-crashes-through-roof

      http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/video-report-falling-cow-hits-car-after-church-always-gotta-be-ready

      Regarding Peter, hmmm. I haven’t thought about it in the way you suggest. I have considered how some of these Christian giants sometimes got into heated arguments, like Paul here, where he said he rebuked Peter to his face. And praise God for that! Peter was wrong and Paul tried to help him get on track, which apparently worked, at least over time. In Acts 15, the elders had a meeting so they could all get on the same page.

      I’ll get to your point in a minute, but first, continuing with what is a passion for me.

      What happens so often today (I think it’s of epidemic proportion) is ‘Christian’ leaders praying against, James-3 cursing those who they feel threatened by, who disagree with their doctrine, who know they’re disqualified biblically from leading, etc..

      Instead of approaching them face to face (like Peter did to Paul), ‘Christians’ pray from their hearts against (James-3 curse) those who disagree with them. And oftentimes, these curses work. They put spirits of fear, and/or sickness spirits, etc.. For example, God told me this: http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/a-gift-that-will-set-many-free

      Many ‘Christians’ do this towards people who oppose their viewpoints. This is serious sin that James says is demonic. We can’t actively hate our brother and expect to go to heaven. And this is what happens all too often in doctrinal debates. We can be teaching totally sound doctrine, but if we respond this way we’re toast if a meteorite hits us, I believe.

      And if we’ve hurt people publicly, like in a book, we should change what we wrote and personally get right with the people we’ve hurt. This doesn’t happen often enough. There isn’t sufficient fear of God or love for our brothers and sisters.

      How can we know someone is actually cursing us: http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/also-ive-finally-shared-much-of-what-i-know-about-the-tremendous-and-mostly-misunderstood-and-underused-gift-of-tongues-another-reader-thankfully-put-me-over-the-edge

      Your question: would Peter would have gone to hell because he rejected the grace of our Lord…? Again, hmmm. I suppose God only knows this one. It doesn’t seem that we have enough data.

      Do we know that he was totally rejecting God’s new covenant program? To what extent was Peter rejecting God’s grace for his own life and in what he taught the gentiles?

      And it’s hard for me to believe that Peter was willfully sinning according to Hebrews 10:26-39. He wasn’t saying, “God, I know your want us to totally live in the new covenant, but I’m going to teach otherwise anyway.”

      Perhaps a similar example, today, is the many pastors who teach old covenant tithing, thinking they are teaching sound doctrine. I think many, deep down, know it’s wrong though. But they think it keeps the bills paid. Many of these pastors will curse from their heart those who point out to them that tithing is totally old covenant and actually encourages people from not being led by the Holy Spirit.

      Paul did say this about Peter:

      “…when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned.”

      Paul could be using the word “condemned” in the same way he used it in Romans 8:1-4, when read in a non-USB version like the NKJV, or the WEB, here:

      1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

      It is possible that Peter was in big trouble spiritually, to the point that he’d go down and not up.

      It’s also possible that God gives people a certain time period in which to repent, and God gave Peter Paul. Maybe he was in danger of going to hell, but not quite there yet.

      But I don’t really know specifically how God determines this. If anyone has insight, I’m interested. He gave Jezebel time to repent before he judged her on earth, but that doesn’t mean she wouldn’t go to hell if she died before repenting. I would think she probably would have.

      Rev. 2:

      21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great oppression, unless they repent of her works. 23 I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

      But then Ananias and Sapphira didn’t have time to repent at all. But this is a much different subject. God doesn’t usually make people sick and kill them on earth. But it’s interesting how He gave Jezebel this time to repent. She was probably hell-bound, had she gotten hit by a meteorite, but because she was leading others astray, God was going to deal with her on earth too, so she would repent and stop doing what she was doing.

      Personally, if I would willfully sin a sin that leads to death (ie.: Paul’s Galatians-5 list, lying, etc.), once I would cross the line I would feel condemned, and rightfully so. Then how could I stand before the totally holy God face to face with confidence to enter heaven had I died while in this sin? But I don’t know for sure exactly when exactly a person’s name would be removed from the Book of Life through willful sin (Rev. 3:1-6). But I do know where the totally safe zone is — and we never have to leave that place of safety. Or if we have left, let’s get right with everyone and live right with God and people forever — ONE with each other in Christ! This is supposed to be the norm — the scriptures in the header for this site…!

      I know I’m going further than answering what you asked, but to me, these side issues are also interesting.

      That’s my take. Thanks for asking!

      Jeff : )

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 22, 2010 @ 11:41 am | Reply

  18. Corners book is one of the worst things I have ever read. It is logically incongruent, terrible exegesis, and he uses the same tactics he warns against and admonishes not to do. By lambasting Calvinists for their interpretive paradigm and then turning around and using the exact same methods to structure his opinions, if you really pay attention to what is written, he defeats his own arguments.

    Comment by Anonymous — February 21, 2010 @ 6:12 pm | Reply

    • I appreciate you sharing your perspective, but you’re making very serious accusations without giving any examples. Would you like to give some specific examples, for I have never heard this charge before. Some refuse to read Corner because of his tone, but I haven’t heard this. Specifically, where does he do this? Please share.

      I studied Dan Corner’s writings and listened to about 25 of his teachings (in their entirety) on cassette many years ago. From my study, I would say this.

      First, are we talking about the same book, “The Believer’s Conditional Security?” Dan has more than one. For now, I’ll assume this is the one you’re referring to.

      First, regarding his tone, which perhaps you are referring to when you say “lambasting Calvinists,” lambasting is not a Godly method, and unfortunately, I think he’s unnecessarily turned many off because of his harsh style. This saddens my heart, but I don’t see a retraction or a revision to his book or website comments. But I haven’t researched his material for over a decade, with a few minor exceptions and his online videos.

      It would be great to see a public apology, and a rewriting of his cutting remarks, especially when he mentions names. If I’m ever out of line in this area on any of my sites, I would appreciate constructive criticism. I want to be right before God and men, and I actually believe this can be a salvation issue. We must be right with all people. It’s easy to see ‘Christian’ leaders as the enemy and not the demons driving the ‘Christian’ leaders. We must love everybody no matter what.

      But having said that (including that this is very likely even a salvation issue when leaders let themselves be a clanging gong, like Paul said not to do in 1 Cor. 13), I’d like to help people understand Dan’s perspective.

      He knows for sure that OSAS is sending millions and millions to Hell for all eternity. This doctrine has basically destroyed the church in America so ‘Christians’ are hardly different from non-Christians in the stats. Heart adultery is off the charts, for example. And these willfully lusting ‘Christians’ think they’re going to heaven because of what they’re taught and what they’re not taught by preachers who are mostly disqualified to teach based upon Paul’s elders’ qualifications.

      Dan knows how from the pit of hell and how diabolical this doctrine is. The Devil loves OSAS. “Ha, ha, ha…, I’ve got ‘em, ha, ha.” And how can a full out Third Great Awakening happen when such a doctrine (and its variants) is believed by most? Jonathan Edwards’ teaching wouldn’t even be accepted today. Now the message is “Sinners in the hands of a loving God — and everything is okay, K-LOVE.” This is a serious problem. Dan understands what this doctrine is doing.

      And then there is this James-3 cursing issue. I haven’t seen Dan talk about this, but I have many posts on this subject [see my category: “‘Christians’ Cursing People,” if you’re interested.

      Dan has been cursed BIG-TIME!!!!!!!!! The hate and anger directed at Dan, who is one of the few people who is willing to publicly address this issue, is so horribly huge! OSAS defenders can be very mean and nasty. Many James-3 curse Dan with their whole heart, who is on the front lines.

      It can be hard to forgive ‘Christian’ leaders who are supposed to be spiritual examples, but who hate you with a passion while they insist that everyone teach the doctrine that is sending so many to hell
      . I know from first-hand experience. I work hard at forgiving and praying for those who curse me.

      Do you have any idea how many ‘Christians’ actively hate and pray against (James-3 curse) Dan? Does anyone have any idea? People who think they’re going to heaven no matter what can be so mean. But that doesn’t give us an excuse to be mean in response. We must overcome…. We must forgive. We must walk holy.

      Also, Dan’s work is mainly a refutation of OSAS. It doesn’t say much about what the Bible says about who does go to heaven. Have you read “Life in the Son” by Robert Shank? It has a great tone, refutes OSAS, and also discusses who then does go to heaven.

      We must be actually “in Christ.” We can’t be legally in Christ without being experientially in Christ. Look at Romans 8:1-4 (but not in the NIV and the other USB-based translations which exclude 8:1b; though, they do have 8:4). Imputed righteousness is the born-again experience, but we have to remain in Him in order for it to remain valid, or our names will be “removed from the Book of Life” (Rev. 3:1-6).

      I’ve written an article which has a short collection of scriptures that specifically addresses the issue of who does then go to heaven: http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/who-goes-to-heaven-scriptures. If you can refute it as not being on the right track, I’m currently offering $1,000 to anyone who can. I welcome you to check out my hermeneutics. And what I’m teaching is totally different than almost everything that is being taught all across America, and what Americans have taught all around the world, poisoning them too, I believe. We are responsible….

      Back to Dan’s theology. I would say that he easily refuted OSAS in “The Believer’s Conditional Security;” though, every single argument he makes may not succeed at doing this. After all, it’s 801 pages. Every single page doesn’t need to be perfect for his overall argument to succeed. He has hit OSAS from so many different angles when all it would take to refute the doctrine is for just one argument to be cogent. But Dan has many.

      When I studied his work, there is one technique or method that I see as fallible. He mentions old covenant examples of those who fell away and then uses these examples as if they can refute OSAS in the new covenant. I think this hurts his argument, because when people see an incorrect use of scripture they may discount the other things he says that are correct.

      So if you’re interested in explaining to us where Dan’s other arguments fail, I would like to hear them. And I invite you to do the same with my article, which had never been refuted in the two years it’s been up, and it’s been read by enough people that it’s at the top of Google if you type in .

      It would be great to be on the same page across America. There is no reason for us not to. The Bible really is so clear. And we’re losing our country at rocket speed. Now is the time to repent. The day may soon be approaching in which we’ll see Revelation fulfilled in front of our eyes.

      We must be right with Him and each other or we’re in big trouble. This is what the Bible teaches if one really has ears to hear and eyes to see.

      Freedom from really being in Christ! This is real Christianity — life in the Son.

      Sincerely,

      Jeff Fenske
      Anchorage, Alaska

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 21, 2010 @ 9:34 pm | Reply

    • At least he is not like John Calvin and burned people at the stake who did not go with the “OSAS” hellish filth

      Comment by bob — February 24, 2010 @ 8:41 am | Reply

    • Bob,

      It’s amazing how such a large percentage of ‘Christians’ are following people who almost certainly aren’t even in heaven, Luther and Calvin, based upon what they actually said and did. Martin Luther didn’t even believe Christians could do what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. In many ways, he and Calvin lived reverse-Christian, reverse-the-second-greatest-commandment lives:

      All of my “Calvin didn’t get it” posts:http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/category/calvin-didnt-get-it

      All of my “Luther didn’t get it” posts: http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/category/luther-didnt-get-it

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 24, 2010 @ 10:11 am | Reply

  19. Hi,
    I know i live here in the UK but on many occasions i actually get chance to speak to brother Dan and his wife via email.

    What i will say is the following about Dan as I see it the good and the uneccesary. Dan has a great heart for GOD this is doubtless as he continually meditates on scripture and wishes people to see the truth.

    However I at times feel his methods are a little coarse towards people, Possibly causing heated feelings where none are necessary. Now I am fully aware that Messiah also did this to religious people, The reason however Jesus did this was because the religious people KNEW what they were doing, Distorting the law for their material/physical advantage etc.

    However when refuting people’s tradition or downright false teaching they often believe it because they simply dont know / have never been taught the truth. It is necessary therefore to consider the situation, Being quick to hear, Slow to speak, Slow to anger and adjust accordingly having our words as it were seasoned with salt. This is not always possibly and as scripture teaches we are to be “peaceable with all men as far as is possible”.

    So in entirety I feel brother Dan could be more loving and gentle in his responses at times as a little gentleness can calm a persons anger and cause him to listen moreso than attack for defense.

    Doctrinally Dan has much which is spot on the button, However sometimes it seems so harsh it actually feels a little “lawlike”

    Regards
    Brother
    Adrian

    Comment by Adrian — February 22, 2010 @ 10:10 am | Reply

    • Adrian,

      The main thing is that we’re not living in Paul’s will-not-inherit list at all, and that we’ve crucified our flesh.

      Gal. 5:

      List one:

      19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

      List two:

      22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

      And if we have hurt people we need to get right with them. And if we’ve hurt people publicly, it is often right to repent publicly.

      We need to repent. We need to work out our own salvation through fear and trembling, being squeaky clean, having a good report before all men, dressed in white (Rev. 3:1-6).

      The “old school” is to act like nothing is wrong, but this is not biblical.

      Many have been hurt. We need to all be clean to actually be “Christ’s.”

      “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 22, 2010 @ 1:13 pm | Reply

    • Also, Paul’s elders’ qualifications aren’t mentioned much:

      1 Timothy 3:

      1 This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work. 2 The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching; 3 not a drinker, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having children in subjection with all reverence; 5 (but if a man doesn’t know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the assembly of God?) 6 not a new convert, lest being puffed up he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have good testimony from those who are outside, to avoid falling into reproach and the snare of the devil.

      Titus 1:

      5 I left you in Crete for this reason, that you would set in order the things that were lacking, and appoint elders in every city, as I directed you; 6 if anyone is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, who are not accused of loose or unruly behavior. 7 For the overseer must be blameless, as God’s steward; not self-pleasing, not easily angered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for dishonest gain; 8 but given to hospitality, a lover of good, sober minded, fair, holy, self-controlled; 9 holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict those who contradict him.

      May we (myself included. Please correct me if I get out of line anywhere, please?) take the plank out of our own eyes so we can see clearly to remove the speck of sawdust from our brother’s eye.

      jeff fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 22, 2010 @ 1:56 pm | Reply

  20. Actually i would like to add a little comment.
    Being under the law of Moses is only applicable to a small amount of scripture and so if we are willing to say the following “Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow” Then His expectations for us ( besides the law ) are no different than His expectations in the old testament.

    Adam and Eve ( mankind ) werent under law but they were still expelled from the garden for disobedience ( all disobedience is sin, therefore the one who knows to do what is right and does not do it sins! )
    Therefore i feel old testament examples are VERY useful to us as all scripture is inspired of GOD and beneficial for teaching, Reproving etc.

    Comment by Adrian — February 22, 2010 @ 10:15 am | Reply

    • Adrian,

      I agree with your last paragraph, but Dan is using old covenant examples as proof that we can also fall away in the new covenant. Dan often (at least in the past. I haven’t been keeping up on his work, currently) would cite these old covenant examples in interviews as proof, not just as an overall Bible principle that also may apply in the new covenant. I don’t think these examples are proof at all.

      Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, no doubt. But the covenant they were in (not having the Holy Spirit in them and Jesus not having died and risen yet) is so different.

      As you know, I totally agree with his conclusion that we can all easily fall away today. But we can’t say that because certain people fell from salvation in the old covenant then we can fall today.

      There are so many clear texts that totally refute OSAS (Mt. 5-7, John 15, Romans 8 and 11, Gal. 5, Heb. 10:26-39, Rev. 3:1-6, and etc.), that to me, bringing in King David, etc., just makes the waters murky when they’re not at all.

      We can’t say because David fell we can for certain also fall. Hard core OSASers believe the covenant today is so night and day different, because we’re under grace now; although in reality, they were under grace in the old covenant too.

      And many OSASers have an incorrect understanding of how Paul used the term grace: http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2010/02/19/the-meaning-of-%E2%80%9Cgrace%E2%80%9D-%CF%87%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%82-in-the-bible-its-not-what-you-think

      The requirements for going to heaven are much stricter in the new covenant (Mt. 5-7 and Heb. 10:28&29, for example), so it seems that it would be easier to fall now. But we have greater grace, we’ve been made clean by His blood and we have the Holy Spirit in us enabling us to now overcome.

      These issues are paramount; though, most pastors don’t clearly teach these distinctions. They paint this surreal, unbiblical picture, emphasizing over and over how we’ve been saved (past tense) by grace, because now the kingdom of heaven is grace + nothing. They don’t understand what ‘grace’ really is, neither do they understand what is required for us to remain in in Christ.

      “So, David fell, so what,” they might think, because we’re under grace now, he wasn’t. Though they don’t realize we’re under a stricter requirement and stricter judgment (Hb. 10:28&29).

      So it might be a general principle throughout the Bible that people can fall away, but it doesn’t help much in the refutation of OSAS, given the current gross distortion of biblical truth that is commonly taught today, in my opinion.

      We can’t tell a hard-core OSAS adherent: “You can fall because David fell,” and this is what Dan does, or at least did a lot in the past. Grace + nothing totally changes the picture for them that they don’t see any relationship whatsoever. It may be a principle, but it’s not proof.

      Dan does totally refute OSAS with many other solid arguments; though, and I’m very appreciative of that.

      Does that make sense, Adrian? Maybe it’s different in the UK. The grace + nothing teaching here that if we were to bring up David, people would say “so. I’m not David. I’m under grace + nothing;” even though, they don’t understand hardly at all what God’s grace is and how ‘nothing’ is really something. The two greatest commandments that supersede the 10 in the old covenant.

      We must abide in Him. Just as the old covenant had promises and requirements so does the new covenant.

      This is another general principle that hasn’t changed. Like Joe Schimmel quotes so many scriptures that say “if” we do this and “if” we do that…. http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/joe-schimmel-the-great-deception%E2%80%94once-saved-always-saved There are many conditions in the new covenant, just as there were in the old.

      Though the conditions are different, today, just as we have more grace to overcome, today. David committed adultery and murdered outright, whereas, all we have to do is commit adultery or hate in our hearts to fall (Matthew 5, etc).

      Perhaps if it was explained this way the argument could work.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 22, 2010 @ 1:01 pm | Reply

  21. It is true that unfortunately we seem to have either excessive grace teachers or law preachers, When it is made so clear that we who have crucified the flesh shall live by the spirit because we do the things of the law from our hearts.

    We have to wonder whether our relationship with GOD is so fragile that our Father would cast us of because of one sin ? I think often we hold things against ourselves that GOD has already forgiven us. But on the other side of the coin some think they can do as they wish on a continuous basis and be forgiven. This latter type of person clearly being refuted by the book of Hebrews amongst others.

    Its a much stricter ruling we receive from our Lord when he changed the commandment from an action to a though IE: If we even consider lying down with a married woman or otherwise this is adultery / fornication. We must pray to GOD that the Spirit will help us to keep our mind clean and our hands pure.I also agree that though we have many valuable lessons in the old testament we cant fully apply them to the new covenant.

    And yes Jeff the perverted Grace teaching is rampant here = Grace + nothing = Life age long, A very different message than the one Paul / Luke / Jude or James deliver to us.

    Regards
    Brother Adrian

    Comment by Adrian — February 22, 2010 @ 2:01 pm | Reply

    • Adrian,

      I have some ideas your statement:

      “We have to wonder whether our relationship with GOD is so fragile that our Father would cast us of because of one sin ? I think often we hold things against ourselves that GOD has already forgiven us.”

      Adrian, I’m wondering what you’re thinking here.

      I’m assuming you’re already talking about the sins that lead to death, like those in Paul’s Galatians-5 list, and lying. And when Paul says ‘envy’ in Galatians 5, I’m assuming he wasn’t referring to us just thinking it would be nice to live as comfortably as so and so, but that their would be hate and even James-3 cursing associated with the desire. Still, I think many ‘Christians’ do this, and lust is so prevalent.

      And we’re basing our conclusions on what the Bible says and what the Holy Spirit is saying, right — not just our own idea what God would or would not do, right?

      So what in the Bible and in what the Holy Spirit has been saying would give us the idea that just one of these willful sins would not keep us from being able to spend eternity with our totally Holy God?

      If our conscience condemns us here, how much stronger will it condemn us when we see Him face to face?

      A senior pastor wrote about me once that he could never work with me because I’m too idealistic. Am I? Is it too idealistic to believe what the Bible and the Holy Spirit says above our conceptions that are based upon other sources?

      I’m thinking more and more that once the truth about who really goes to heaven is accepted by a ‘church’ somewhere, when the people really get right with each other and right with God, they’ll have real revival. ONE will happen.

      And once one church gets it (and therefore God shows up, big-time!), people will come from all around, wanting to jump in the RIVER too.

      I think this one doctrine is main key to the Third Great Awakening happening — though there are other related doctrines and practices as well.

      What do you think?

      Jeff : )

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 23, 2010 @ 11:36 am | Reply

  22. Hello. I have stumbled upon your site recently, and am intrigued by it. I am looking for truth from God on some matters, and I have some questions about what Dan Corner and like-minded folks believe. I, along with him, am appalled at the licentiousness of Christians in these times. They would have the grace that God has given them be used as a license to sin, and I wonder about the condition of their salvation. Now, to my questions. I will list them numerically to make things easier.

    1. Does Dan Corner teach sinless perfection (that a Christian can reach a state in his walk wherein he sins no longer)? If so, does this perfection come at the point of salvation, or some time thereafter?

    2. In what manner does a Christian lose his salvation? Is it through excessive sin, loss of faith, or through willful rejection of Christ outright?

    3. If salvation can be lost through sin, what kinds or what amount of sin cause it’s loss?

    4. What do you believe was accomplished by Christ on the cross, and what do you believe His role to be now, as He abides in Heaven.

    Thank you for your time. By the way, I didn’t ask question #3 because I intend to see “how far I can push the envelope”, I only desire to know the truth.

    God bless,
    Carl

    Comment by Carl — February 22, 2010 @ 9:38 pm | Reply

  23. HI Carl pleased to meet you and see that you detest sin and do not use Gods Grace as a readon for sinning.

    1)No He is fully aware perfection in this age is impossible and regardless of how hard we try we will at times sin, But he fully acknowledges their is sin leading to death and sin not leading to death ( if you need any scriptures listed please ask and i will be more than happy to oblige ) .He also ackowledges along with us that if we continue to sin wilfully after coming to a saving knowledge of our Lord their is no longer any sacrifice for our sins. Hope thats covered question 1.

    2)A Christian can lose his/her faith by pursuing the the world after coming to a saving knowledge ( for many different examples please read and consider the parable of the sower, you will clearly see that ALL of the people mentioned were saved except the first who the devil stole the word from their heart so they could not belive and have faith ).
    You are correct in the total rejection of Christ being a cause of loss of salvation this is also spoken of by our Lord, In all examples where people had committed the unforgivable sin it seemed to be because they said Jesus had a demon, however in one example it was equated to the fact that after receiving the Holy Spirit they denied him ( remember Peter only denied the Lord before the outpouring ) but their is an interestng turn of phrase in scripture when all the disciples are called after the ressurection of our Lord it says they gathered all the disciples and Peter – was Peter classed as no longer being a disciple because of his three denials of Christ ?.

    Faithlessness and unbelief are what the Spirit came to convict the world of, their is a great difference between little faith an none.

    3) Well Carl if a person is sinning intentionally/wilfully in any sin thats a great way to lose salvation, That is why the scriptures teach us to exhort and discipline each other with all spirituality but also in gentleness less we ourselves stumble into sin . Studying Galatians five would give you some fine examples of why people will not receive age long life. If you/we keep sinning on purpose its obvious we love the sin we commit and arent repentant of it. If you could study Hebrews chapter 10 you will notice it is said that God will no longer remember our sins and transgressions early on in the chapter, now there is no way this can mean any sins or any transgressions because reading on you will see that if we are sinning wilfully there is no longer forgiveness of our sins only a terrifying expectation of judgement.

    4) Our Saviour dying on the Cross paid for all men sins , now that may seem a little contradictory to what was already said. Well check scripture and you will see the following, Jesus stated after healing / helping many people – go away and sin no more, since we know Jesus did only the will of God we can clearly see Jesus does not an cannot approve of sin, also see our Lords strict words to the churches of Revelation these are very stern warnings that unless they correct the various problems IE: left their first love, Sexual immorality , teaching lies , materialness etc – He will remove their lampstand ( congregation ) from its place, He also states “but there are some who have not solied their garments” those are the approved of ones.

    To be honest Carl this section really does require considerable discussion and i cannot do it justice in this quick reply, If so required i am willing to type an answer and list scripture ( in context ) for you.
    Jesus paid for our former sins , nowhere is it stated our future sins are forgiven if we sin intentionally, in fact quite the opposite John tells us if we sin intentionally we have neither seen nor know GOD.
    We are forgiven if we repent of our wicked ways ( repent = change the way we think and act ) this obviously involves confessing our sins before GOD, for the person who trys to hide their sins cannot be forgiven. In this we admit our need for Jesus Christ and His blood offering to cleanse us .

    I hope this has blessed you Carl and if you need any further help please ask
    Remember our brother James – If anyone asks God for wisdom he will receive, but do not doubt when you ask. I believe God wants to give you wisdom beyond all you expect Carl and He may use us, but He is perfectly capable wihout us.
    Your brother in Christ
    Adrian ( ps: its been a pleasure trying to help )

    Comment by Adrian — February 23, 2010 @ 6:33 am | Reply

  24. Carl,
    Just out of interest do you live in the UK? because i have a copy of brother Dan’s book i could mail to you.

    Regards Ade

    Comment by Adrian — February 23, 2010 @ 6:34 am | Reply

  25. Thank you! You’ve answered some of my questions. But as is often the case, I now have MORE questions for you. :)

    1. What does it mean to “sin willfully”? Isn’t all sin willful, otherwise it’s not sin?

    2. How can some sins cause you to lose your salvation and others not? Since to sin means to fall short, does it matter if you fall short by a mile or by an inch? Haven’t you fallen short all the same? Also, doesn’t James say “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” (JAS 2:10). I would certainly agree that some sins have greater consequences on earth, far better if you are to sin to lie than to murder, and it seems even God despises some vices more intensely than others. But with respect to the Law, in the eyes of the Judge, all sin is transgression, all sin is offensive. Any sin could have caused the fall of Adam. One sin defiles as much as one thousand sins, if even I sin in the smallest way and deserve Hell, how can a distinction be made between sins? I believe that God takes sin very seriously, and would like to know your opinion on these things.

    In Christ,
    Carl

    Comment by Carl — February 23, 2010 @ 7:32 am | Reply

  26. Hi Carl,
    I am just typing this reply to let you know i wil answer in full however i have lesons to teach so will be quite busy tonight.

    No not all sin is willful, Sometimes we crack under pressure and dont obey the Spirit – This is the wrestling with the flesh Paul spoke of.
    But what about when we know something is wrong and just go ahead and do it, Slipping up or not realizing what we have said/done is completely different to be prompted by the Spirit through our conscience and going ahead and doing it anyway!. Will discuss in depth tomorrow when i get a chance to type more.

    Yes sins are categorized in the bible , for instance consider that worry is a sin – The Lord says do not worry on many occasions, Have you ever worried about something Carl – I know i have and do. But nowhere is this sin mentioned as leading to death, neither is fear such a sin although if it caused you to deny Christ it could lead to death if you see what i mean.
    Now consider Murder / Hate which is equated to murder by our Lord, The book of Revelation tells us no Murderer, Sorcerer or liar etc will enter the kingdom. It would be great to look at this more in depth.

    Will do my best to type it up for you tomorrow.
    Your brother in Christ
    Adrian ( Ade )

    Comment by Adrian — February 23, 2010 @ 11:20 am | Reply

  27. To everyone — prompted by one of Carl’s questions, above,

    Carl wrote:

    “2. In what manner does a Christian lose his salvation? Is it through excessive sin, loss of faith, or through willful rejection of Christ outright?”

    When I mention OSAS (once-saved-always-saved), sometimes I also add words like: “and similar doctrines,” because there are close relatives to OSAS that are taught probably even more than pure OSAS.

    First, there is pure OSAS.

    There are many pastors in America who teach OSAS in its purest form, that there is no sin that can cause one to lose one’s salvation. They’ll even give examples, as did Luther to Melancthon: Martin Luther: Sin Boldly — “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day” http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/martin-luther-sin-boldly-%E2%80%94-no-sin-can-separate-us-from-him-even-if-we-were-to-kill-or-commit-adultery-thousands-of-times-each-day.

    Many innately know that this doctrine is just way out there, but it’s surprising how many pastors teach this, including well known ones. This is pure OSAS.

    But then there is the belief that the only way to lose one’s salvation is to outright reject the Holy Spirit once and for all. This seems to be a fairly common belief in the evangelical community.

    Then there is this. I once asked a pastor what he believed about who goes to heaven. He responded by saying: ~”I just think it’s hard to lose one’s salvation.”

    I’m not sure what he meant, for I don’t think he even knew specifically. But “It’s hard to lose one’s salvation” is another version, I think, of OSAS. Though, it’s not pure OSAS, because in this way of thiking, there are some sins that would exclude a person from heaven.

    For some, this would be the really, really bad sins, like the ones Luther told Melancthon were still permissible, like murder. Actual adultery might still be included in their list too. But who knows, these days.

    But “It’s hard to lose one’s salvation” for many evangelicals would probably often mean that merely lusting is okay, as is lying once in awhile. And who doesn’t hate those who are so mean to them?

    There are many ‘Christians’ in this category. For them, it’s not hard to refrain from committing actual adultery with a person. And they wouldn’t even think of the possibility of going through the motions of actually murdering someone. But they might have a lust addiction and wish harm (James-3 curse) people who they let themselves hate.

    This is what I’m talking about by “OSAS and similar doctrines.” Similar doctrines would include those who just think it’s hard to lose one’s salvation. “As long as we act on the outside like most of the other ‘Christians,’ we’ll get in.” After all, that’s what is said in most church funerals.

    Most ‘Christians’ I know are probably in the “it’s hard to lose one’s salvation” category, which doctrine is almost as diabolical as OSAS and deadly.

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 23, 2010 @ 12:59 pm | Reply

  28. Thank you all for being patient and answering my questions.
    I’m still confused about some things. As I understand it, certain sins committed by believers are unto death (and I take it here you mean spiritual death), while others are not unto death (1 JN 5:16-17). However, Paul states that the “wages of sin is death…” (ROM 6:23). To sin means to die, unequivocally, indubitably. I don’t think there is any distinction between sins here.
    Also, Adrian stated above that fear and worry are not counted as a sin leading to death. But idolatry is mentioned as a sin that is committed by those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (GAL 5:21). Since idolatry is not just the worship of graven images, but also giving regard to anything other than God with respect to our faith, then worry is indeed idolatry. Is not worry an undue reliance on our own reason? If I’m worrying it is because I have abandoned faith in God and am relying on my own wisdom (and the wisdom of my flesh is faulty and erroneous). As for fear (I think we all agree that we are not talking about fear the emotion, such as would be experienced when meeting a bear in the woods, but rather a spirit of fear or fear as a state of being) isn’t that unbelief? Look what the John has to say about fear and unbelief: “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (REV 21:8). I don’t think it would be wrong to say that ALL sin stems from unbelief. I think it’s clear that God takes all sin very seriously, there are no minor sins, all deserve damnation. There is no permissibility with God when it comes to sin. Sins such as worry and unbelief may seem small to us, but this is only because we measure them by the standards of men. The standard of God is perfection, and without perfection no one enters the kingdom of God. Every sin is a major offense to him. Any sin is enough to keep you out of heaven.
    Once again God says of New Jerusalem: “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful” (REV 21:27). NOTHING impure will enter into the New Jerusalem, nor will anyone who does what is shameful. Isn’t all sin shameful? Isn’t all sin impure? So again I ask: what distinction is there between sins before the Law?

    Thank you all for your patience in answering my questions,
    Carl

    By the way Adrian, I live in the US.

    Comment by Carl — February 23, 2010 @ 5:39 pm | Reply

  29. Just to clarify, I am not an advocate of the unbiblical doctrine of sinless perfection in this life, though it may seem that I am by my above post. The above are only ponderings.

    Comment by Carl — February 23, 2010 @ 5:43 pm | Reply

  30. Hi Carl,

    you stated these points
    ” Is not worry an undue reliance on our own reason? If I’m worrying it is because I have abandoned faith in God and am relying on my own wisdom (and the wisdom of my flesh is faulty and erroneous). As for fear (I think we all agree that we are not talking about fear the emotion, such as would be experienced when meeting a bear in the woods, but rather a spirit of fear or fear as a state of being) isn’t that unbelief?”

    I would like to approach these first considering biblical characters, Elijah worried, especially when Jezebel was looking for him, Now this is a man who had seen many many works of GOD. What was God’s reply to Elijahs worries ? was it to kill him , shout at him or call him an unbeliever – no GOD comforted and assured him.

    Do you think GOD would have done the same if Elijah had run into idol worship , Fornication , Murder ? clearly not. We have weaknesses of the flesh in certain areas. When Paul was afraid ( Acts 18:10 ) God comforted him and didnt not tell him he was weak in faith etc.

    Sins are of different categories my friend and God does NOT view them all equally this is clear in His word which you yourself quoted, As we just saw getting scared of things occasionally is the human nature just as getting tired / angry ( righteous anger ) etc are. Didnt Jesus get tired , Angry at times – We have a human nature for now you must never forget this or in your striving for perfection now you will become disheartened. By all mean seek Holiness knowing that the day will come when perfection is yours if you continue in the faith.

    As regards the Revelation scripture you quoted i always consider it this way, Many years ago being a JW as God showed me through scripture that i was not truly following Him i began to discuss this with an elder at the local congregation after i had excommunicated myself we had one last chat. He openly admitted he knew there were doctrinal errors and what i had shown him was true. I was horrified at the reason he hadnt left the Jw’s or told anyone “Because its all i have ever known and everyone would turn against me” Thats being fearful ! of Standing up for our Lord before the liars and teachers of falsehood denying our Lord for our own comfort etc.

    The statement you arrived at “and without perfection no one enters the kingdom of God.” If you can be perfect my friend why would Gods only begotten have to die for us ? You will attain perfection only when the kingdom is fully restored ( IE: all wickedness removed ) We all carry the sin of Adam, This is the sin which Jesus forgives . To be perfect you must fulfill ALL of the law – an impossible task except for Messiah who did this for us in order to save us from our Sins.

    Now do not think I am playing down sin – it is the vilest thing and all sin is lawlessness. Just please consider what you are saying carefully “there are no minor sins, all deserve damnation” if you say this then you deny the scripture that says there are different levels of sin for instance please study Hebrews 6: 1-6 , this clearly shows sin a person cannot be forgiven of ! However we know that GOD forgives our sins this must be taken as a whole, Is this a licence to sin because we are under Grace? of course not.

    You are right to say nothing impure will enter the kingdom of Heaven now if you study Galatians chapter 5- 6 you will have a list along with the revelation you mentioned of the types of people who WILL NEVER inherit the kingdom of heaven. Should a person who claims Godliness live Holy ? Please read Titus chapter 2 for a wonderful understanding.

    By the way if you can find a scripture that says other than the things i have said i will happily accept it.

    In all things i have said I hope i havent seemed harsh as that was not the intention, and the closer we walk to God the better for us and our true brothers and sisters.

    Regards
    Ade

    Comment by Adrian — February 24, 2010 @ 7:09 am | Reply

  31. Ok Carl, it would cost less to buy you a copy from the USA than to post you one. I was blessed in that brother Dan sent me one as a gift in order that i review it.

    It does contain many intersting points for thos who havent fully considered all things. I did find the pages concerning Church history somewhat tiresome but Dan obviously felt they were necessary.

    There is another book which i read considering eternal security
    French L Arrington – Unconditional Eternal Security : Myth or truth
    It has some interesting points in it. It is around 200 pages long with study questions. I believe it is around $5.00

    An interesting book disproving the Jw theory of 607bce as the date of the destruction of jerusalem is called ” the gentile times reconsidered ” its actually a good book concerning the bible history as well. If you cant afford brother dans book and can hold out for a month i will buy it for you to read.

    God bless you
    Ade and family

    Comment by Adrian — February 24, 2010 @ 7:21 am | Reply

    • Adrian and other commentors: ABOUT THREADED, NESTED COMMENTS

      In case you’re interested (I just found out how this works recently, myself), you can reply directly underneath the comment you’re responding to by clicking on “Reply” at the bottom of their post.

      Then our reply will appear directly underneath that post, indented, “nested.”

      But what if someone has already replied in this manner? An example is comment #17, above. If someone else does this first, theirs won’t have a “Reply” to click on (the way I have it set up, which could be changed. Each response would indent to the right further). But we can still reply to the main comment as a nested comment (for example, #17) by clicking on “Reply” underneath that comment. The comment will just appear below the other already nested comments to that specific post.

      jeff : )

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 24, 2010 @ 7:55 am | Reply

      • MORE ON ABOUT THREADED, NESTED COMMENTS

        I decided to allow nested comments “4 deep,” meaning we can reply to replies right underneath the comment.

        This is an example of a comment that is “3 deep” — the original comment, plus two more indented to the right.

        We’ll see if this gives us enough room widthwise in these 3rd and 4th level embedded comments.

        jeff

        Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 25, 2010 @ 7:25 am | Reply

  32. Noted and thank you Jeff , I will try to keep everything in its relative place as it can become a bit of a minefield >:)

    Comment by Adrian — February 24, 2010 @ 9:09 am | Reply

    • Thanks, and again, I appreciate your help and input very much. I’m also currently responding to Carl, but you make my work so much easier!

      : )

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 24, 2010 @ 9:58 am | Reply

  33. Hi Adrian,

    I am by no means saying that all sins are equally bad. There are many verses that attest to the fact that some sins are worse than others, both with respect to their consequences on earth and to the degree that they offend God. Jesus even seems to indicate in Luke 10 that there will be different degrees of punishment in hell. I am saying, however, that all sins are equally wrong. It does not matter if you break God’s law a little or a lot, you have broken His law. Once again, according to James: “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all”. James was saying that even the smallest transgression kills you so as to damn you, and you are just as damned as if you had broken every other point of the law, or even all of them!

    You are correct that God is merciful in our weaknesses. But He can not, perfectly just as He is, simply overlook any sin. You are correct again in saying that it is an impossible task for us to fulfill the whole Law. You did take issue with my statement about the necessity of being perfect to enter heaven. In fact, to have communion with God at all (for it is sin the separates us from Him) we must be considered perfect under the Law. But you know that this was made possible by Christ’s death on the cross. And you would rightly say that we will never be fully Christlike (in regards to our keeping of the Law) until we die. This is why you take issue with my statement about being perfect to enter heaven, you were thinking that I meant that we must fulfill the Law ourselves. No, if that were the case then I would never see heaven. What has really happened is that the requirement of the Law, which is keeping it completely, was fulfilled in us through Christ (ROM 8:3-4). So we have been crucified with Christ, and no longer do we live, but rather it’s Christ who lives in us (GAL 2:20). Not only that, but the very righteousness of Christ has been imputed to us (PHI 3:8-10), so that if in God’s eyes every requirement of the Law of been fulfilled in us, then also those of us who are being sanctified have been made perfect for all time with respect to the Law (HEB 10:14). Now we are at peace with God, with whom we were formerly at war (ROM 5:1). Because of this we can not say we are righteous because of our works, because even the good that we do is not good enough for God (ISA 64:6). So the righteousness in me is not of my own doing, but rather it is the righteousness of Christ imputed to me by faith, for it is because of faith that God credits me with righteousness (ROM 4:3-5). It is because of these things that we can say that there is no condemnation for us (ROM 8:1) and that we are justified, not condemned, by God (ROM 8:33-34). Christ is even able to save forever those that come to God (HEB 7:25), because he always lives to intercede for us as our Mediator and High Priest.

    I would like to continue with my point, but I’m pressed for time. I didn’t think at all that your above post was harsh, I understood it’s tone. Don’t worry about buying any books for me, I might buy them on my own at some point.

    -Carl

    Comment by Carl — February 24, 2010 @ 10:07 am | Reply

    • Carl,

      I was writing a response to your earlier post, to embellish what Adrian was already saying, but now you’re going in a completely different, seemingly classic, perhaps even an OSAS direction.

      You mention Hebrews 10, without taking into consideration Hebrews 10:26-39.

      You mention Galatians 2 without Galatians 5.

      You mention Romans 8:3-4 and 8:1, but what does Romans 8:1-4 really say (if read in a Textus Receptus based translation like the KJV, NKJV, etc.. Though verse 4 repeats the concept left out by the Rupert Murdoch’s NIV in verse 1b.

      “There is therefore no condemnation in whom? Please read these scriptures and others in my article: “Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way” article http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/who-goes-to-heaven-scriptures.

      And who are the children of God in Romans 8 and elsewhere? http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2010/01/30/who-are-the-children-of-god

      When we’re right with God and our neighbors, actually abiding in Christ, we won’t have fear when we see Him face to face.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 24, 2010 @ 10:31 am | Reply

  34. HI Carl,
    I must agree with Jeff’s point that your last comment seemed a little OSAS in tone , maybe i have misunderstood it. What i would appreciate is if you would take a look at the scripture i mentioned Titus chapter 2 in its entirety and discuss the facts therein.

    Basically i understand your point that because we accept Christ He has fulfilled the law in is. But as Jeff rightly pointed out we must be “In Christ Jesus” for this to apply. This means that although we are saved initially by Grace we have a large part to play in keeping ourselves in Christ as you have previously stated it is OUR responsibility to pursue a life pleasing to GOD and walk in a manner worthy of Him in all respects bearing fruit in all good works ( Colossians 2:10 ) for we know that the tree which bears no fruit is good for nothing but being thrown into the fire ( destroyed ) this is clear in Matthew 13:1-9 many people try to apply the latter verses 6-9 to Israel as a whole, This cannot be true as taken in context the words of Jesus are about people repenting He therefore states that people have ime to repent but will be cut down if they do not within the time God has given them.

    Now it is my unfortunate duty to inform you that you missed the most important verses of Phil 8 in the tradition of OSAS – you abruptly ended your proofing at verse 10 ! but let us examine what Paul says immeadiately after that ;

    11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

    12Not that I have already obtained it or have already (AB)become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by (AE)Christ Jesus.

    13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: (AF)forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

    14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the (AH)upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect ( Mature is the correct rendering of this word not perfect ) have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

    16however, let us keep (AM)living by that same standard to which we have attained.

    17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the (AO)pattern you have in us.

    18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,

    19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

    So as we can see from these things even though Paul knew we are saved only By Grace initially, after receiving the Spirit of God we are expected to live Holy and blameless to the end of our lives! If even Paul says he does not regard himself as having laid hold of the prize how can we do so. He actually says he will ive to the standard he has done observing a pattern knowing that this will lead him to the prize.

    Regards
    Adrian

    Comment by Adrian — February 24, 2010 @ 11:31 am | Reply

  35. Please excuse my abrupt ending, I was called in to work and I just got back.

    If my posts seem indicative of a background in OSAS, it’s because I do come from a background in OSAS. I recently came upon Dan Corner’s beliefs, and in the name of prudence decided to check it out. I certainly don’t mean to offend your sensibilities, if I didn’t consider them to be potentially valid I wouldn’t be here. If it seems like I’m probing you, it’s because I am. I want to be sure that if I believe something, it is correct. This is especially the case when concerning Biblical doctrine, and even more so when my salvation is brought into the matter.

    There are still some things about what you teach I don’t understand, and in my present mind, disagree with, so don’t be offended when I don’t embrace your doctrine with open arms just yet. I think a careful, deliberate, and long investigation into your beliefs would be in accordance with the dictates of prudence and wisdom. This isn’t to say the I believe in OSAS. I think I’ve come to the conclusion that true apostasy is possible, but the means by which this can happen are as of yet unknown to me.

    I believe the Holy Spirit will give each of us wisdom to understand things, and that He will convict me of the truth ultimately. So please be patient and forbearing with me, because I consider both of you to be my brothers in Christ, and would hope that I would treat you with all due consideration and love.

    Jeff, you mention a few verses that that I left out. I didn’t do this to ignore them, but because they were not relevant to what I was saying at the time. Believe me you, I have studied both of them. I would also agree with you that one must abide in Christ for these things to be effectual. I think where we may disagree is on the issue of abiding. I would see abiding as continuing to have that saving faith of one’s conversion; in essence continuing to believe and trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross to save you. To lose this faith to me is to have open hostility toward God, His grace, His salvation. So then Christ is denied by the inversion of that by which He was first believed upon: a lack of faith and a confession of disbelief rather than saving faith and belief in Him. I seem to understand that you believe that salvation can be lost by some sins. Which sins? Why not any sins? Remember, small as it may seem to us, worry is still idolatry in the same way the lust is still adultery.

    Adrian, once again I ended abruptly because of time, and it’s just been too long for me to pick up where I left off and still remain true to what I was trying to say. I would never deliberately cherry-pick verses so as to make them appear the way I want. I understand what you’re trying to say, but I just can’t shake the feeling that what you talk about (I’m referring to the part about walking in a manner worthy of Him) is the kind of thing Paul warned against in Galatians 5, namely, that you are seeking to be justified by the Law (I realize that Paul was referring specifically to circumcision here, but the approach of justification by the Law is at the heart of this text).

    Again, I hope you can understand my reasoning in all of this, and that I’m not trying to fight with you. I’m just a guy seeking the truth, and I believe God will show it to me.

    -Carl

    Comment by Carl — February 24, 2010 @ 7:14 pm | Reply

    • Carl,

      I’d like to present a perspective on your statement:

      “I seem to understand that you believe that salvation can be lost by some sins. Which sins? Why not any sins? Remember, small as it may seem to us, worry is still idolatry in the same way the lust is still adultery.”

      Okay, I see what you’re saying, I think. Idolatry is listed in the Galatians 5, who-doesn’t-inherit-the-kingdom list, just as is adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness.

      First, lustfulness is in this list, specifically, not only the word, adultery.

      Though, we should know that lust would be included anyway, if only the word adultery were listed, because Jesus stated that heart adultery is now adultery. Jesus didn’t make the same statement regarding worry and idolatry.

      And worry isn’t a major emotional component for idolatry as lust is a major (if not the major) emotional component of adultery.

      Worry isn’t listed anywhere as damnable, and it’s likely that even Jesus did it. If that is true, then worry is not always a sin.

      For example, it’s hard to imagine that Jesus wasn’t worrying when He was sweating great drops of blood in Gethsemane, knowing some of what he was about to experience physically and emotionally.

      Could it be for us somewhat like it was in the Garden of Eden for Adam and Eve before they sinned? For we were “called for freedom?”

      They were permitted to do anything accept eat from the tree…. Could it be that we have been given specific parameters that we have to stay within — the place of safety? And worry is allowed within those parameters. As are many things.

      We’re free to explore, relate, learn, eat, etc., but we must respect our fellow human beings, even if they’re living disrespectfully — the second greatest commandment being our standard.

      And the Greatest Commandment is represented specifically in Paul’s Galatians-5 list by just two words: idolatry and sorcery — and they’re right next to each other, just as are adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness are. Worry doesn’t seem to fit at all among the idolatry and sorcery combination.

      Sorcery is actively invoking the spirit world, the world of other gods.

      I don’t see any indication that Paul is including worry in idolatry. That would be reading something into it that seems to be clearly not there; whereas, lust is there as plain as day.

      That’s my take,

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 26, 2010 @ 2:22 pm | Reply

  36. HI Carl, ( please excuse any typos – im well knows for them >:) )
    Obedience and law are very very different things . You will agree that before law was in the world there was only Grace, but even in law it was still Grace because no man can fulfill the law, then obviously after law we have Grace.

    Seeking to be justified by law ( the complete law as handed to Moses was/is impossible, thats why Israel went astray because they were seeking to be justified by law )However God ALWAYS demanded obedience – this cannot be denied, God does not bless evil doers. So if we having received His Spirit knowing from our hearts that which is good or evil choose to do evil where do we stand ? A servant can only have one master, we are slaves of that which we obey, Either of faith and good deeds leading to life ( see James – where true faith is good deeds and the works of GOD will always follow ) where every kind of evil is – age long destruction will follow. You see faith is visible through works, this being evidenced in scripture.

    Suppose Carl that as you belive everything comes down to faith, where does that leaves brother James ? his book is a lie which would lead us to question what else is a lie in GOD’s word. But we know that Gods word is true and faith without works being by itself is dead.

    Lets examine Galatians 5 and see whereby i may possibly be seeking to be justified by law ( which by the way i do not know all the laws of Israel so living by them would be kind of awkward ) and being a gentile i have never received the ceremonial laws or been instructed to live in them .

    I will comment next to each verse number if you believe i err please show it and i will restudy in line with your evidence ( sincerely as i also want to know if i stand in error

    1) Christ set us free, dont be enslaved to the Law.
    2) If we receive circumcision to obey the law then we gain no benefit from Christ Jesus.
    3)If we receive circumcision and wish to keep the law we must keep the WHOLE law not just the so named “big ten”
    4)If i do this after receiving Christ i fall from Grace. Logically this is speaking to Former / believers as it was written to the congregations also a person cannot fall from that which they never received. We cannot fall from a height we never climbed.
    5)We are waiting for the hope ( age long life ) Through the Spirit who also gives us faith to believe.No law just through faith for if we pursue the law for righteousness we nullify the cross of Christ.
    6) God is no longer interested in the ceremonial laws IE: circumcision but followers who love Him and so ecidence by keeping ALL His words and commands.

    please see 1 Corinthians
    18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

    19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
    Notice quite clearly here Carl – keeping the commandments of GOD is a must but we clearly know this isnt the ceremonial laws as handed to Moses. Is Paul preaching law? no but those who love GOD will do what He commands every word to the best of our ability, walking in a worthy manner.

    the final part of verse six states we have faith working through love, so clearly our faith will “work” what is this work that faith produces ?

    James 2
    But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

    19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

    20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

    22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

    23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

    24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

    26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    7) Someone ( a judaizer ) has been trying to get them to leave Christ or mingle law with Grace ( which can never occur as we know from JESUS’ parable of the wineskins )
    8) The persuasion to revert back to Jewish law and customs did not come from the Holy Spirit.
    9) Be careful because false doctrine will spread if not crushed quickly.
    10) Do not be won over by this law keeping view because the person/people speaking it will answer for it to GOD.
    11) If Paul was to still be preaching the law then he would not / could not be preaching Christ and so the law would stand and the Cross of Christ would be aabolished.As we know we either seek to be justified by law or Grace.
    12) Paul absolutely detests those who are trying to get the congregation to turn back towards law and so nullify faith in Christ.
    13) We were called to be free from the law no longer trying to be justified by the law, indeed that is why the law was never preached to us or handed down to us, so we must stay free. But we are not to use our freedom of the law as a reason / excuse to sin, But keeping the commandment/law of love to serve one another.
    14) the whole law is fulfilled in true Godly love ( Lev 19:18 )
    If we fulfill the royal law of love we are doing well.
    15) but if you are evil to each other full of worldy lusts you will devour one another as this is of the demons and not of God.

    James 3
    13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.
    14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.

    15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.

    16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.

    16) We must make the effort and obey the Spirits promptings and we will not carry out the desire of the flesh ( We will still desire ungodly things but have a duty to deny them leaning upon God and not our own strength , For we in ourselves and without the Spirit are incapable )
    17 ) We will have a struggle against sin as the flesh imperfect as it is and the onslaught of the devil will try to drive us down the path that is wide and easily trodden, we are not to do the things the flesh prompts us to do. See Romans 7 Pauls great struggle against the flesh and how he HATES sin. He wants to do the right thing by GOD ALL the time but cannot as He ackowledges he is imperfect and waiting for that great day when the burden of Sinful flesh is taken .
    18 – 21 ) A list of evils, all who commit them and are unrepentant ( not changing the way they think and act ) will not inherit the kingdom you will note there is no proviso that so called Christians who commit these atrocious acts against God will inherit the kingdom. Therefore one claiming godliness must steer clear of these things.
    22 -23 ) The fruits of the Spirit of God, note the saying there is no law against these things. There is a law against the former wicked things though – The law of love, A person fulfilling the law of love through the Spirit would not indulge in the former vile sins. As that one would love his Father in heaven and all people and so not commit these things against them.
    24) Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh along with its passions, does this mean we will never be affected by or tempted to sin ? obviously not as the above warnings of those who will not inherit the kingdom would be invalid and remember they were written to the Christian congregation.
    See Romans chapter 6 in its entirety.
    25 ) If we live by the Spirit ( live in the Spirit and are given life by the Spirit ) we must obey the Spirit and not carry out the desires of the flesh ( Gal 5:16 ) Romans 8:13 tells us if we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit we will live, that is our part to play , we are not on some autopilot program from God , He expects our obedience to all His words and commands. Ephesians 2:1-10 we are not saved because of works but good works are a by product of being reborn doing the works God created us to do ( good deeds full of faith that there is a reward for HE loves us )
    26) Please see the James quote of people who behave in this matter.

    Hope this makes it clear how i believe , and if you have received anything from this Carl it would be great to know , whether you agree or disagree.

    Sorry i couldnt explain further but my time is somewhat limited.
    Blessings in Christ
    Adrian and family

    Comment by Adrian — February 25, 2010 @ 3:28 am | Reply

  37. Thanks Adrian. I doubt that there is really much we disagree on in your last post; maybe we’re saying the same things without realizing it? Who knows, it’s happened before with me.

    Jeff, I would agree that Jesus was experiencing anxiety in the garden of Gethsemane, however, I think it’s important to note the difference between the EMOTION of anxiety and the anxiety which becomes a state of mind, which we call worry. Besides, Jesus specifically told people not to worry, so if ever he were to worry, doing so would make Him a hypocrite.

    -Carl

    Comment by Carl — February 27, 2010 @ 9:09 am | Reply

    • Carl,

      I’m not an expert on the theology of worry. I haven’t given ‘worry’ much thought. But it’s possible that many who have taught this subject aren’t either. What we’ve heard isn’t all necessarily true. From them, we may have heard: “worry is idolatry” and “all worry is sin.”

      You say: “Jesus specifically told people not to worry, so if ever he were to worry, doing so would make Him a hypocrite,” but the word, ‘worry’ isn’t even in the NKJV/KJV. It’s an NIV word (the NIV is very problematic). And many translations say: “don’t be anxious.”

      Mat. 6:25 (KJV) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them….

      In Gethsemane, Jesus wasn’t thinking about what He was going to eat or drink or what he’d be putting on. He was going to be eating nothing, drinking hardly anything, and they probably took all of His clothes off in front of everyone who was mocking Him. He knew His Father would not be taking care of Him, for the most part, during this period.

      Mat. 6:34 (KJV) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. ["Each day's own evil is sufficient." WEB]

      He was basically saying, don’t spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on tomorrow, but focus on today. For what we have to think about today is enough, considering the amount of evil we’ll encounter.

      And He was very concerned about the severe evil He would soon encounter. He pleaded with His Father to take this cup from Him. He was flesh and blood just like you and I are. He must have dreaded the thoughts of what would soon happen. Have you ever seen “The Passion?” Have you studied what would cause great drops of blood to come out of the body like sweat?

      Jesus wasn’t a hypocrite. He was our example, that we would follow in His steps. Jesus was close enough to the Father to know what He was supposed to do. And He must have known that the emotional and physical pain would be IMMENSE! And as human as you and I, He must have been afraid … and He was probably worrying too … to the point of sweating great drops of blood. And this isn’t idolatry. He was submitted totally to His Father’s will no matter what. He wasn’t willing to follow a demon’s voice or even Satan, who spoke to him directly.

      But the main thing we were discussing is whether the idea of worry is part of the sin of idolatry that Paul mentions in Galatians 5. I don’t see any evidence for this. And I don’t think it’s biblical to say that worry is always sin, either.

      And worry doesn’t always mean a lack of trust in God. Jesus trusted His Father, and He knew His Father wasn’t going take care of Him like He does the lilies in the field, during this struggle He would be in.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 27, 2010 @ 11:39 am | Reply

  38. I do agree that the NIV is a very problematic translation. I use the NASB myself. It’s a very reliable and accurate translation. Here is some info on it: http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/ . I’m not an expert on the theology of worry either, so don’t worry. I’m just checking what is being presented against what I have believed and currently believe to be so in order to reaffirm truths and replace falsehoods with truth.

    -Carl

    Comment by Carl — February 27, 2010 @ 12:13 pm | Reply

  39. Carl,

    We were taught many things that aren’t fully true. That’s why a very small percentage of Christians really abide in the Vine. And that’s why we’re losing this country on the fast-track.

    The NASB was my main Bible about 30 years ago. I liked it better than the NIV because it was more of a word-for-word translation. But the main problem with the NIV and NASB is the Greek text they’re based on.

    I have some info in my links. Westcott and Hort were bad news, from what I’ve found. From what I understand, Roman emperor Constantine’s scholars based their Greek text on the less reliable manuscripts, mainly from Egypt. And these are the Greek texts that Westcott and Hort liked so much. But it’s doubtful that they were even born-again Christians, and they were involved in some questionable spiritual things. And this is what these USB and Nestle Alland texts are based on.

    I use Textus Receptus based translations, mainly the WEB for work online, because it’s royalty free. I don’t want to get into a copyright problem.

    The USB based texts cut thousands of words, some of which are very important doctrinally, like Romans 8:1b.

    They basically cut most of the last chapter of Mark, which says that speaking in tongues is one of the signs that follow all who believe. Which furthers the notion that only some people are supposed to speak in tongues.

    Constantine apparently wanted more of a New Age Bible that would fit more into society without making waves. And that’s what these USB-based translations do too. They’re politically correct. And they’re destroying the word of God, in my opinion.

    And these translations also mistranslate at times, terribly. Try studying forgiving others in the NASB or NIV, and you’ll see what I mean. Two key texts are altered so many don’t realize that unforgiveness gives demons an actual place, not just a little “foothold” (NIV), or an “opportunity” (NASB). The Greek word is topos, which simply means place.

    Demons are allowed to be inside Christians when we let the sun go down on our anger and don’t forgive everyone from the heart, completely (Jesus talked about the ‘tormentors’ in Mt. 18 – KJV). And I don’t believe I’ve yet met someone who totally does. So practically all ‘Christians’ have demons in them. The James-3 curses put upon them then can stick, contrary to what many who have demons themselves teach.

    Demons in ‘Christians’ are a big deal. Many church leaders think they are justified to do all kinds of things because of the feelings the demons give them. These translations are crippling for the church.

    And then they say we only have to forgive 77 times, instead of 70 times 7. And on and on…. These things add up.

    We need the full Sword of God to fight the enemy with and overcome. The church has been whimped out by fluff. And pastors are even using The Message???!!! Yikes!

    The Devil knew well enough to not add to the Scripture. That would be too obvious. So He deleted key texts. No wonder why people don’t understand what Romans 8:1-4 really says.

    This is really serious.

    The church is getting jacked!

    Jeff Fenske

    Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 27, 2010 @ 3:29 pm | Reply

    • Carl,

      I added a few things about demons in Christians to this post after I first posted it.

      Also, I have many articles on most of what I purport, on this site.

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 27, 2010 @ 3:46 pm | Reply

  40. Jeff, would I be correct in surmising that you subscribe to Oneness Pentecostalism (Apostolic Pentecostalism)? Does Dan Corner subscribe to these beliefs as well?

    -Carl

    Comment by Carl — February 27, 2010 @ 4:34 pm | Reply

    • Carl,

      Sadly, I can’t really answer many questions about Dan. I was planning on not saying anything about this because of R. T. Kendall’s forgiving message. But I think there are times when it is good to say something.

      Many years ago, here was a way that he was treating a certain group of people, and I suggested in a nice, non-pushy way that it would really help unity happen if he’d be more less confrontational in his presentation. And he cut me off, just like that.

      He had invited me to a conference, which I probably would have gone to, but I brought this one thing up that was on my heart, and he would no longer talk to me. So I have no idea what he’s up to now. I learned what I could from his material, and have barely even gone to his web page ever since.

      I did look at what videos of his that I could post, and that’s when I found this one. I’ve also linked to his site for two years, but I put up a disclaimer in order to warn people. I’d be *glad* to take down the disclaimer if Dan would change. God wants us all to be ONE with each other in Him!

      As to what I subscribe to denominationally, I started to write it out here, but it got too long, that it just seemed logical to put it into a more easily readable post that others can more easily find if they want too.

      Here it is: “Jeff, would I be correct in surmising that you subscribe to Oneness Pentecostalism?” My answer …

      Jeff Fenske

      May we be ONE with each other in Him!

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 28, 2010 @ 12:32 am | Reply

    • Hey Jeff,

      I’m finally making use of your nice reply button. :p Anyway, I’m glad to see that you don’t subscribe to the Oneness doctrines. I’m sorry for making the mistake, but I misunderstood what you said about tongues (I thought you meant that the speaking of tongues would be an outward sign of salvation, and if you don’t show the sign, you aren’t saved), which is what Oneness folks believe (plus your site is called One Can Happen, I guess my powers of deduction aren’t quite up to par with Mr. Holmes ;).

      I agree that Dan Corner comes off as pushy and loveless. Undoubtedly God will work to change him in that. I was also excited to find that my question became one of your blog posts. Though we may disagree doctrinally on some points (and God may yet show me where I err) and believe that you and our friend Adrian are both true followers of Christ.

      Keep running the race,
      Carl

      Comment by Carl — February 28, 2010 @ 5:16 am | Reply

      • Carl,

        I thought that’s maybe what happened. ‘ONE’ for me is quite different. I got the idea for the name of the site from YES’ 90125 CD’s song: “It can happen.” ‘It,’ I believe is ‘ONE,’ according to Jesus in John 17.

        And I was glad to point out that I absolutely do not believe a person needs to speak in tongues to be born-again; though, it seems that they all did in the early church, which I point out in my tongues article.

        I wrote a comment about how I study that differs so much from the norm today. I think you’d be interested in it. I probably should have written this as a separate post too: Comment #44 in http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/who-goes-to-heaven-scriptures

        I also really do believe that the Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us into all truth, which both Jesus and John said. Seminary professors, and even most pastors seem to be mostly unable to hear the voice of God. They’re too busy keeping their own dead thing going. It’s really sad.

        And it’s good to pay attention to dreams and visions too.

        Draw near to God and He’ll draw near to you.

        In Jeff’s Writings, you’ll see a paper that I wrote for D. A. Carson on how Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit just as we are to. He gave me an A- for the paper, which shocked the other professors who I showed it to — because D. A. was actively resisting the Vineyard movement at the time, and was teaching just the opposite of what this paper (and Hawthorne’s book) said.

        Being led by the Holy Spirit is basically shunned at seminaries. Cerebral memorization of theologians concepts and gymnastic manipulation of texts is rewarded. It’s all about keeping the old thing intact. Anyone who challenges the system is James-3 cursed and shunned.

        I visited Fuller, though, and it wasn’t so mean. Also, I had a dream that Trinity Evangelical Divinity School was a charismatic seminary. I think I was supposed to go back a third time, possibly to finish my degree, but it would have been a real stretch logistically. I may have blown my chance, but at least now I have this site as a database if I were to attend again.

        Right now, I’m hoping real revival will happen in just one church, and I think doctrine is the key. “Then the world will know,” and seminaries.

        Please feel free to read and respond to anything else on this site. And my email address is in “About Jeff Fenske” too.

        Jeff

        Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 28, 2010 @ 10:16 am | Reply

  41. HI All,
    Sorry i havent been present i have been adding text to my own site.
    Regarding bible translations.
    I dont believe There is a particular best translation, the NASB has two or three errors i know of ( even though it is my translation of choice i have notes written all over it in Hebrew / Greek and english ) The NIV is very misleading in places. Most people cant perceive what the king james is saying, and if you pick out certain middle english words and ask them what they mean they have no clue.

    The message is an abomination as is the word bible, the new english bible also has some very loose translation but excellent translation elsewhere.
    Quite simply i believe multiple translations are useful until you find one adequate translation and correct the minor errors yourself.The most accurate bible i have ever read is Rotherham’s emphasized bible and Dr youngs literal is also very good, again though your middle english needs to be exemplary to study them.

    If we face facts, one can learn to listen to the Spirit through God’s word and live a life pleasing to Him in all respects, becoming One with Him all our days until the new age comes or we sleep.Ulitmately i try to read the bible 10 – 14 times a year this allows us to find those things we could otherwise miss. The more we know the more we can meditate upon.

    Not sure if you all agree with this. We also memorize scripture I know this doesnt make us more holy but again its nice to know word for word and then reflect upon God’s word.

    blessings
    Adrian and family.
    Carl i am very impressed by your search for the truth may God bless you and yours richly.

    Comment by Adrian — February 28, 2010 @ 10:59 am | Reply

    • Adrian,

      What translation you choose is your choice. It sounds like you’re happy with the NASB. But in case you’re interested, and especially for other readers, I have to say this in addition to what I already said above.

      Removing passages from the Bible is a really big deal, which is what Westcott and Hort started, apparently based upon what Constantine had done to make the Bible less controversial. It’s like how the mainstream media just lets us know what they want us to hear. What they report is usually true (thought they often spin it). It’s what they don’t report that allows the people to be hoodwinked into not resisting the New World Order, which is Satan’s will, not God’s; though, God predicted it.

      One of my favorite Bibles of all time is a high quality very-wide margin, super-high quality leather NASB that I regularly read about 30 years ago. But I haven’t really touched it once I found out what was going on.

      The translation is pretty good. It’s the Greek text that it’s based upon that is an abomination.

      It is possible that eternal security may have never become so prominent had these translations not dropped Romans 8:1b.

      And in your other just-posted comment about pentecostalism, isn’t it interesting that these translations basically say that most of the last chapter of Mark isn’t Biblical?

      Some of the most powerfully important texts are just dropped — which looks to me like the hand of Satan.

      It’s interesting that the key text about the Trinity is cut too (I haven’t checked the NASB for this, lately, though). All in all, if I remember correctly (it’s been very many years), thousands of words were dropped. I’m sure you could find charts online to see which ones.

      Also, I agree that the archaic words in the KJV are confusing and frustrating to most readers. I use the NKJV for my personal study, including if I listen to the Bible on CD. But it’s copyrighted, so I use the royalty free WEB online, usually, because the publishers could technically sue me if I were to use too many of their copyrighted words.

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — March 1, 2010 @ 2:13 pm | Reply

  42. Hi Jeff,
    I would say i neither agree nor disagree with all your comments. I hope you can find the time to read this http://www.bible-researcher.com/kutilek1.html i think you would understand more the way moreso that I consider reading God’s word.

    I will just point out this small fact and hope you get chance to read that shortcut i left to the textual criticism and translation consideration article.

    When i was a witness I was clearly led out with the wisdom of GOD , none of the elders could answer my points or questions ( not my wisdom but GOD’s ) i was led out by using their own twisted bible translation because you always find contradictions which shouldnt be there. These ultimately lead you to understand something is wrong, not just with their “version” of God’s word but also with their teaching.

    I will use this example as it is very clear cut to others reading this.

    In John 1:1 the NWT says if i quote correctly from memory “in the beginning was the word ( Logos ), and the word ( Logos ) was with GOD ( 2316 ), and the word was a god ( 2316 – should read exactly the same as GOD” notice the addition of “a” before God ( Theos )however the two words are the same and in no way indicate the word was a god but THE GOD.

    Now in the same bible under the Hebrew writings we have in Isaiah 9:6 “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us, and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called, Wonderful counsellor, Mighty GOD, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    I cannot obviously type the Hebrew here to show you ( as with many sites hebrew type cannot be used ) This clearly points to the fact Jesus is GOD in the flesh. not a god ( which also stands clearly against JW reasoning, they say there is only one true God but now they also claim Jesus is a god, therefore if Jesus is not GOD he must be a false god ) Hope you can see where i am going with this.

    Many bibles have errors in them and even if you could read Hebrew/koine Greek to the fullest you would still have to rely on your/my/other bias on how to interpret certain phrases which even the most knowledgable scholars say they difficulty interpreting the subtle shades of.

    This is not to defend nor disrespect anyones comments but simply to point out my previous point that there is much to be gained by solid scripture study from many different sources with a foreign language dictionary or two at hand.

    May God bless you
    Your brother in Christ
    Adrian

    Comment by Adrian — March 2, 2010 @ 12:42 pm | Reply

  43. I’m surprised at most of the comments here on this site. Christians calling other so-called Christians heretics and wolves in sheeps clothing because they believe or do not believe in Eternal Security? There can be saved people from both camps. Has Satan deceived you men and women into attacking each other? Truth will never be reached to those in error when you have spiritual arrogance and lack of love.

    The bottom line is this: If there is anything that you must do in order to retain salvation, then there is something you must do to earn it.

    Those who are truly eternally secure keep the commandments because they ARE saved, not to be saved. Anyone who professes to be in Christ and saved and live in habitual sin have NEVER been born of God. Eternal Security does NOT teach a license to sin but teaches that true Grace leads to godliness and forsaking the world. Thus, anyone who professes to be saved and lives for the world and it’s lusts have never been born again and are on their way to eternal condemnation unless they repent. Dan Corner states that Eternal Security is from the devil because it leads people to live a life of sin because they are eternally secure. However, what Dan Corner and those who live this way fail to realize is that Eternal Security from a BIBLICAL VIEW does not teach this. It teaches that those who are eternally secure abide in Christ and keep the commandments because they are born of God (1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:4).

    Dan Corner also rips John 10:27-29 out of context. That passage does not state that “as long” as Jesus’ sheep continue to hear and obey His voice, then they will receive eternal life. The grammar clearly states that those are the characteristics of His sheep (they continue to hear and obey). And these sheep have eternal life. If they lose it, then how was it ever eternal? or if they choose to “jump out” of Jesus’ hand, then how then can NO MAN (literally NO ONE including YOU who wants to jump out) be plucked out of His hand? Furthermore, this would imply that Jesus as the GOOD SHEPHERD failed to do His job and keep His sheep in the fold.

    Are you trusting in your own strength and righteous deeds to enter heaven? If Jesus were to ask you why He should let you into heaven and your answer is, “because I’ve kept your commandments and lived a good enough life!”, then you will stand there in your OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and in filth in the Lord’s sight and be sentenced to eternal damnation. This is an admonition to everyone that hears and understands.

    Comment by Messenger — September 6, 2010 @ 3:50 pm | Reply

    • Messenger,

      Your arguments sound good, but they are based on fallacy.

      For example, the Shepherd and the sheep. It is unwise to take a parable farther than Christ did, just like it is unwise to determine doctrine largely from type and symbol. We should limit our interpretation to what Jesus actually said.

      Jesus didn’t say He would make His sheep stay in the fold. If truly born-again believers decide to leave, doing the prodigal son thing (like willfully lusting, hating, withholding forgiveness, lying, bitter envy, etc.), Jesus will let us go. And we’ll be out of His hand.

      The Good Shepherd will also try to woo us back, always with open arms waiting, wanting us to return, probably even in tears, brokenhearted. But He won’t grab us against our free will. He won’t make us obey. And few truly born-again believers really do, by the way. Most are doing their own thing, living at least in part in Paul’s who-doesn’t-go-to-heaven list in Galatians 5

      So not only can your argument be disproven theologically, it also can be disproved by observing carefully the lives of those who we know have been truly born again.

      I, for one, have not always walked in the holiness that is required to go to heaven, biblically, but I am now. How about you? Do you know what the Bible teaches about who goes to heaven? Please read my article: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way

      Also, regarding John 10, please read The CHIEF PILLAR of Eternal Security (OSAS) Toppled!

      Regarding your “bottom line,” we must go by what the Word of God says, not by human logic. We are in the new covenant. And just like the old covenant had stipulations, so does the new. The new covenant’s stipulations are only stricter, because we now have the Helper, the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, enabling us to overcome sin. Jesus laid this distinction out in the Sermon on the Mount.

      The Greatest Two Commandments have replaced the 10 Commandments. This is stated over and over by the New Testament writers.

      Luther didn’t get it. Calvin didn’t get it [see my categories under with these titles]. Both were absolutely disqualified from leading, based upon the Paul’s elders’ qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus. And both are almost certainly in hell. And yet people still follow John Calvin and his false “irresistible grace” fallacy.

      My bottom line is what does the Bible say, and that’s what I lay out in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way. In there, you will discover many scriptures that each, by themselves, easily disprove your theory. Together they are slam-dunk, irrefutable. The New Testament writers did not teach what you are teaching.

      …including John. You quote verses from 1 John 3 and 5, but fail to point out verses that talk about actual believers sinning in 1 John 1 and 2, and having an advocate when they do.

      We need to be careful. We need to read the Bible with a heart to understand what the writer and the Holy Spirit are really saying. Too often, readers cherry pick verses that seem to agree with what they already believe. This is a main reason why we have false doctrines in the church. And some of these, like OSAS are most often diabolic in their destruction.

      Please consider that John also wrote John and Revelation. Look at John 15. Whose responsibility is it to abide in Christ, according to Jesus (unlike the Never-Let-Go song that is played ad nauseum on K-Love, which is pure falsehood, mind-control disinfo)? And what are the consequences according to Jesus if we don’t?

      It’s not up to Him, it’s up to us. He died for everyone, wanting everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He did His part, now we have to do ours, which is to abide in Christ. And when we abide in Christ we will bear fruit.

      And you tell me one person whom you know that has always abided in Christ from the day they were born-again, who has always been fully in Paul’s who-goes-to-heaven list in Galatians 5, and. There should be many, and I think this will someday happen, when the Third Great Awakening happens. But I don’t know anyone like this, myself.

      And back to John, look at the church of Sardis in Revelation 3:1-6. This is one of the slam-dunk verses that totally disproves your belief, just by itself. Many other scriptures like these are in my Who-Goes… article.

      We need to read the Bible as little children, open to what it says, not bringing in preconceived ideas. Then it all becomes clear.

      We need to take off our Baptist glasses, our Calvinist glasses, our Lutheran glasses, or whatever, and this often includes getting rid of religious spirits, actual demons that ‘Christians’ pray onto people (James- cursing) so they believe what they insist is true, usually religious-spirit-led themselves.

      There is a reason why the consequences for choosing to become a Bible teacher are more severe than for the average Christian.

      It is my opinion, based upon what the Word of God really says, that most pastors will end up where Luther and Calvin did unless they repent from leading people spiritually when they aren’t even being led by the Holy Spirit themselves — not being blameless (Paul in 1 Tim. and Tit.), not fully being right with their neighbors and God.

      “It’s time to wake up.” ‘Christians’ are not only in danger of losing their salvation, having their names removed from the Book of Life, but they’re living in the doldrums where they don’t have enough of God to overcome sin but too much of God to enjoy sin.

      This is where most of the ‘church’ is at. Most don’t have totally clean consciences, and therefore rightly feel condemnation, according to a careful read of Romans 8:1-4 (including 1b, which the NIV and others throw out).

      K-Love and most pastors spend much of their effort trying to convince willfully sinning ‘Christians’ that they’re right with God even though deep down they don’t feel totally right. See Hebrews 10:26-39

      Most pastors are subsequently con-men, confidence men whose smiles are partially fake.

      But we can do better, which I think largely starts with getting our doctrines right.

      “We must all repent.” And then watch and see what happens, and we’ll wonder why it took us so long. It will be so natural when we are all truly abiding in Christ.

      “Then the world will know.” (John 17)

      And our fruits will remain!

      Power to the peaceful,

      Jeff Fenske
      Anchorage

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — September 7, 2010 @ 4:52 pm | Reply

  44. you conditional security people didn’t work ya’ll way to salvation but now ya’ll think ya’ll can work ya’ll way out john 10:27 says my sheep hear my voice i know them and they follow me he didn’t say they follow and they fall away nor did he say they follow for a little while he simply says they follow me and you people say we can pluck our own self out of his hand well if thats true i would like to see ya’ll answer isaiah 49:16 where he says how christ has his sheep engraved in his hand.

    Comment by patrick bell — April 18, 2011 @ 2:27 pm | Reply

    • Patrick,

      Paul said “work out your salvation through fear and trembling” as God enables us to do so.

      This means that we must abide in Christ (like what Jesus said in John 15), which Paul explains in Romans 8:1 (and elsewhere):

      Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

      5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace….

      12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. 15 For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abbaa! Father!”

      16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

      The answer to Isaiah 49:16 is Romans 11:

      Rom. 11:1; 20-23

      1 I ask then, Did God reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. …

      20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [the Jews], neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

      I copied these scriptures from my article, whom no one so far can refute: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? Perhaps you’d like to read the rest of the story — the scriptures they mostly don’t teach from pulpits or in seminaries.

      Also, the false interpretation of John 10:27 is toppled here: The CHIEF PILLAR of Eternal Security (OSAS) Toppled!

      And by the way, “following” is following. The grace changers twist the scriptures to push this false doctrine that is destroying the United States (and much of the world too) and sending possibly the majority of ‘Christians’ to hell.

      This is the truth.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — April 19, 2011 @ 12:22 am | Reply

  45. notice in romans 8:13 he tells them if thats how they live they will die but in romans 8:14 he says the sons of god are those who are led by the spirit christ sheep follows him in john 10:27 they are branches that bear good fruit and to say they can bear bad fruit makes jesus a liar in luke 6:43,matt 7:17, matt 7:18 matt 12:35 etc. these are the branches he speaks of in john 15 professing christian are not true followers of christ john 15:1 by which he will cut them off true followers are those who follow christ and thats the ones he prunes in john 15:2 because they represent matt 7:17 matt 7:18 matt 12:35 luke 6:43 etc. they’re the ones who follow christ and they’re engraved in his hands isaiah 49:16 o and they’re walls are not temperary but they’re walls are ever before me isaiah 49:17 nothing will get
    them out god bless.^^

    Comment by Anonymous — April 19, 2011 @ 8:01 am | Reply

    • According to Paul, the grace teacher, the true followers of Christ are those who are truly are “in Christ Jesus” experientially, because they “don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

      And how could Paul be any clearer in verses 12-14 of Romans 8. Are you perhaps reading over the word ‘if‘ for some reason? These are all conditional phrases.

      It’s as if the grace changers are reading the conditional phrases in reverse. You’re twisting what the authors intended us to understand. The goal is to learn what they meant, not to make what they meant fit with what we would like them to say.

      John 15 also has ‘ifs':

      1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you [this is the opposite of the popular jingle, "Never Let Go." It's up to us whether we remain (or abide) in Christ or not.]. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, you will ask whatever you desire, and it will be done for you. 8 “In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love. 11 I have spoken these things to you, that my joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be made full.

      12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant doesn’t know what his lord does. But I have called you friends, for everything that I heard from my Father, I have made known to you. 16 You didn’t choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you will ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 “I command these things to you, that you may love one another.

      Dear Anonymous, are you really interested in what the Bible really says, what Paul, Jesus, James and the others really mean?

      “What’s going on in your heart?” — I believe God is asking you.

      “Those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God.”

      If you’re not led by the Spirit you are not…

      Do you hear more than one voice? There should be only one. Which spirit are you following?

      The Bible is very clear. These statements are so clear cut and so simple. I don’t see how anyone can read these in reverse unless there is a real force driving them to do so.

      That’s why these fallacies, or perhaps even heresies are called doctrines of demons. They’re demon originated and demon empowered.

      And when doctrines of demons are at the forefront in the church it’s no wonder that the church is hardly bearing any good fruit, currently.

      We must examine our hearts and become lovers of truth, whatever the truth is.

      Only then can we become ONE in Christ — when we are truly in Christ:
      “who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

      The time is short. We must live in LOVE, Himself — or we are not going-to-heaven Christians according to the Bible.

      jeff fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — April 19, 2011 @ 3:26 pm | Reply

  46. well i dont agree with dan corner saying one sin can rob a christian of his salvation thats like saying certain sins have more authority over grace by which that cant make sense (romans 5:20) if it does then i have to make sure im observing the ones that do so i dont commit them by which that’s also nonsensical (roman 3:20) (galations 2:16) (hebrews 7:19) im not gonna serve christ and the law at the same time im gonna follow christ and christ only not the law because its put in charge to lead us to christ not to observe it (galations 3:10) (galations 3:11) i ordered the believer’s conditional security basically should be coming in pretty soon ill see whats going in this book by which if every thing is accurate and lines up with the truth then that might just convinced me to change my decision by which i hope he got every scripture lined up in its proper place for 801 pages 700 footnotes of refutation.

    Comment by patrick bell — April 20, 2011 @ 7:55 am | Reply

    • Patrick — and hopefully others will read this too,

      Though we’re right now looking at this issue differently, I actually really appreciate this particular comment. I think it’s reflective of what is being commonly taught — and I think I have a good answer. Hopefully we can get on the same page. That’s my goal.

      Dan Corner’s 800 page book soundly refutes once-saved-always-saved, as do other books, as well as this excellent video: [Video] Joe Schimmel: The Great Deception—Once Saved, Always Saved. It’s actually a clear-cut case. The issue has been settled for quite some time. But because these speakers and authors hardly get any air time, and the OSAS preachers are so adamant about their point of view the OSAS exposers’ research goes almost unnoticed.

      There is so much deception these days, both in and out of the ‘church.’ And it’s the deception in the church that allows the deception outside of the church to be so prevalent and even out of control. I’ve been starting to say that if the pastors lie how can we be shocked when politicians, businessmen and even ordinary folk lie.

      We are supposed to be salt and light. And OSAS is the #1 doctrine that distinguishes the light.

      Also, it’s important to study material that refutes OSAS, to know for sure there is no basis for it whatsoever. But then who then goes to heaven? Hardly anyone is really addressing that.

      This is what I’ve done here: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? The Bible is actually very clear. But here is the deal.

      Have you noticed that almost all of the scriptures that the OSAS people use to support their argument are from Paul’s introductions or the first half of his letters? How would you like it if you wrote a number of very important letters but most people only read the first half. And then they spent a tremendous amount of energy going around, telling everyone they know that you believe such and such based — but they had only read the first parts of your argument.

      This seems to be what Martin Luther did, and then many just blindly followed him, without making sure that what he taught was true. And then they raised their children to be good Lutherans, teaching them the Lutheran doctrine (based upon certain parts of Paul’s introductions — discarding the Sermon on the Mount and even four entire books of the Bible — which is what Luther did), praying (James-3 cursing) that they believe these truths to be true.

      This is how I think the doctrine of demons thing got started through Luther. He knee-jerk reacted to the fearful teaching of the time. If you have ever read his biography, he was extremely fearful. And then he read “the just shall live by faith” in Romans chapter one, and he went “Eureka!!!” And then he apparently read the rest of Paul’s epistles through Romans-1 eyes.

      Though “the just shall live by faith” is also in Hebrews 10, where the context is very clear about what this phrase actually means. “Living by faith” is far more than merely believing that Jesus died for our sins and accepting the atonement personally. ‘Christianity’ today is mainly a farce compared to what Christianity really is — and I think it’s largely due to this passing on of Luther’s doctrine — praying (James-3 cursing) that people believe and accept this appealing-to-the-flesh teaching.

      Bonhoeffer called this “cheap grace.” It’s Luther’s concept of grace, not Paul’s that is currently being taught. We need to find out what grace is according to Paul.

      From what I’ve read, it seems that Luther interpreted the Bible largely based upon his experience, instead of being totally honest with the texts.

      For example, Luther didn’t believe we could ever really do what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, so he basically threw it out — as he did four other books of the Bible — which didn’t line up with what he thought Paul taught; though, he also ignored much of what Paul taught in order to fit his theory.

      Luther became this big hero, partly because the Catholic Church was obviously off in many areas that needed correcting. But Luther never really understood Christianity enough to bring the people into true Christianity. And his own life showed it. He was clearly Biblically disqualified to be an overseer according to Paul’s elders’ qualifications. Yet modern ‘Christians’ are still running with his definition of grace, so it seems.

      But what is grace according to Paul, for ‘grace’ is in one of the passages you cite? The meaning of “Grace” (χαρις) in the Bible: It’s not what you think?

      In the old covenant, they didn’t have the Holy Spirit residing in them like Christians today do. Therefore, their ability to overcome sin was much less.

      So Jesus comes in with the Sermon on the Mount: “It has been said ‘thou shalt not kill,’ but I say anyone who hates…” And he talked about how having sex outside of marriage was adultery in the old covenant, but now we have to be pure in our hearts or we are committing adultery.

      So Jesus upped, not lowered the ante, I have written in this site. Now we are to be led by the Spirit, which is what I’ve said in previous comments and is what the Hebrews’ writer refers to in chapter 7, which you cite. ~”The law was weak and useless. Now we have a better hope in which we draw near to God.” He could have said “we abide in Christ” like other teachers called this new relation that is the key component of Christianity and going to heaven.

      It’s wrong to follow someone who was freaked out, and then based his doctrine on Romans 1, which he actually misread, according to how the same verse appears in Hebrews 10. And then in many ways, Luther was actually a vile man. If you’re interested, see the posts under my Luther Didn’t Get It category.

      He really didn’t. And we bought a lie. I was raised Lutheran, myself. And believed what I was taught until I read the Bible on my own as a senior in high school.

      There is another common misconception. There is a major difference between being led by the Spirit in doing the Greatest Two Commandments and doing the works of the law.

      You quote Galatians, but only verses from the first half. Why not go all the way to where Paul explains what he was meaning. Galatians 5 and 6 are so crystal clear.

      Paul was rebuking the Galatians for following the law, trying to get them to be led by the Spirit to do the greatest two commandments. And then he has lists of who goes to heaven and those who don’t — warning in chapter 6: “Do not be deceived” into thinking you will not reap what you sow, eternally.

      Don’t you get it? This is serious to the max! We can’t take passages from Paul’s introductions and run with them like we understand what he meant by them without letting him take us into the correct understanding. And what Paul taught must line up with what Jesus, James, the writer to Hebrews and others taught.

      This is madness. I’m not saying you’re doing it, but many bash opponents to once-saved-always-saved as if we’re the enemy — when in reality, they’ve been deceived in exactly the way Paul said not to be in Galatians 6. This is how bad it is in the church today.

      Seminary professors and pastors in the pulpit who push eternal security should be ashamed and run for cover. They are in such big trouble with God because they’ll get the stricter judgment because they were used by the Devil to deceive the people.

      Some may wonder how so many could be so wrong. I think I’ve partly explained this: how the people blindly followed Luther (most didn’t even have Bibles to check to make sure anyway), and then they blindly prayed (James-3 cursed) that others, especially their loved ones would follow.

      We’ve had some holiness revivals, but they never lasted — probably because they never got the Bible doctrines completely right — especially in relation to who goes to heaven. But there are others too. Thus we have this interesting vision: [vision] “TEAR DOWN the WALLS”: “Take out the foundation [doctrines of demons: once saved, always saved, etc.]. It is not substantial enough to support the building that I am ready to build on this ground.” “I am looking for a ‘general contractor’ who will build according to the blue print.”

      The Bible predicted that in the last days the deception would be great. So to expect that the doctrine that is mainstream today is true is actually contrary to what the Bible said to expect.

      So please do yourself and the world the service of reading Paul with these ideas in mind — especially in letting him explain draw the conclusions just as most authors do towards the end of what they write.

      We can’t just randomly pick and choose verses to support our theories. We need to read the authors’ entire books from start to finish, seeing how he develops his thought.

      Systematic theology and doing word studies is part of what has allowed random verse picking to be a legitimate Bible study. Word studies have their place, but in many cases they are very dangerous. Word studies are not a sound way to study what the Bible says about salvation, for example.

      We need to be very, very careful in how we interpret God’s word. We need to let the authors develop their thoughts, majoring on their conclusions, not their introductions. This is absurd what we’ve done to Paul’s writings and others.

      And we need to pay attention to our hearts. Are they pure? Are we at peace? Are we abiding in Christ? Do we only hear one voice — or are their demons influencing our thoughts and emotions, driving us to draw conclusions before we really understand — wanting us to be mad at those who differ.

      We should all be living in Paul’s who-goes-to-heaven list in Galatians 5. That’s where good Bible studies come from.

      Many of the OSAS pushers are angry people who are clearly in Paul’s “will not inherit the kingdom” list. They have opened the door to demons in how they live — letting the sun go down on their anger (Eph. 4), giving demons a right to enter and remain. These are doctrines of demons reinforced by demons within professing ‘Christians.’

      So the OSAS doctrine encourages adherents to not be concerned about willful sinning, having this license to sin which the Bible never gives. And because willful sinning opens the door to demons, in general, most OSAS promoters are evil spirit influenced in their Bible studies. So no wonder they often angry at us faithful-to-the-entire-texters when they push their ‘truths.’

      I’m not referring to Patrick here, but as long as I’m covering this topic, and because this is under the Dan Corner video (Dan has been attacked VICIOUSLY!!!!!!), I’m just saying that in general OSASers are often angry and even hostile in how they attack those who disagree. This reminds me of the ugliest debates I can think of in which atheist evolutionist professors attack creationist professors. I think this is because both OSASers and the evolutionists are usually demon driven, and they both have arguments they can’t back with the facts.

      The Bible says the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, but how can we be Holy Spirit led if we don’t even believe we’re supposed to and/or if we have other voices and forces inside us influencing our decisions.

      As I said above:
      We should all be living in Paul’s who-goes-to-heaven list in Galatians 5. That’s where good Bible studies come from. Then we’d be at peace and could get on the same page.

      And we’d have revival too. Jesus promised He’d send his glory to help us be ONE (John 17). But if ONE isn’t even our goal…. If the verses I have in my header above are no longer the goal…. But if the goal is instead to power over and silence those who question OSAS and perhaps also the pre-trib rapture — no wonder the ‘church’ is in such sad shape.

      I heard a pastor say a few days ago that Christianity is getting better. Huh? Yeah, sure.

      If we don’t get our act together soon the apostacy during the tough times that are coming will be far worse than we would ever expect.

      It’s time to obey: to get right with God and people. I do think revival will come, but this is the only way. And then when this gospel, the true gospel — real Christians really abiding in Christ — is preached to the whole world, then the end will come.

      Let’s get it started!!!

      Life in the Son!

      Praise Jesus!!!!!!!

      May we be ONE!

      Then the world will know.

      Sincerely,

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — April 20, 2011 @ 3:36 pm | Reply

  47. well the believers conditional security is gonna be the first book that i’ve ever read because i never grew up knowing about this john calvin guy are this luther guy yall speak of i grew up in a baptist church but now im in a non-denominational church plus the teaching of this eternal secuity issue has gotten so hot that ive been going back researching what the bible has to say on this subject since others are showing different views of this it has brought a big confusion for me by which i trust christ wont let me go astray nor hold me accountable (galatians 5:10) (galatians 1:7) (galatians 5:7) (phillipians 3:15) and back to these certain sins kicking 1 out of the kingdom for example im sure you know about this man committing fornication in 1 corinthians 5:1 he was post to be put out of fellowship (1 corinthians 5:2) notice paul passed judgement on him already he handed his flesh to the devil for the salvation of his soul (1 corinthians 5:3-5) i can clearly see here that this man cant possibly be saved yet cause paul said not to associate with 1 who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral greedy drunkard etc (1 corinthians 5:11) (2 thessalonians 3:6) but interestingly this man is called wicked and cast out (1 corinthians 5:13) and the wicked from the righteous according to god’s word is this (matt 13:48-49)(matt 25:32) but judgment already been passed on this man who’s called wicked and i dont see where all hope is lost for this man cause he also became sorrowful and came back (2 corinthians 2:1-8). with that being said some of these other guys was pretty horrible as well (1 corithians 6:7-10) but for them notice the very next verse which is verse 11. so i cant possibly see where dan got the idea that 1 sin can rob somebody’s salvation in fact with all this being said my understanding of (romans 8:13)(galatians 5:21) (galatians 6:8) would have to be a lifestyle thing notice the word live in (romans 8:13) notice sows has an s to it (galatians 6:8) live (galatians 5:21) must be a constant thing im not accusing dan of nothing i just didn’t get the idea of where he get that understanding from??????????

    Comment by patrick bell — April 21, 2011 @ 6:49 am | Reply

    • Patrick,

      I think the 1 Corinthians example is a good one, but many of the people who Dan Corner cites as having lost their salvation were not actually in the new covenant, which started after Jesus died on the cross and when the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost.

      In Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?, I major on what the Bible straightforwardly says about what is required.

      The ‘s’ in ‘sows’ doesn’t make it plural, because it’s a verb.

      Not being right with God and people is what keeps people out of heaven. One sin can certainly disqualify us. Exactly how far into the practice of a sin the disqualification sets in, I wouldn’t venture to say. But I will say this.

      If we are willfully sinning, for example doing something in Paul’s who-doesn’t-go-to-heaven list in Galatians 5, knowing we are disobeying God, we’re going to feel guilty from the get go. And perhaps this is actually condemnation, not just conviction, that we feel, because we are refusing to abide in Christ according to Romans 8:1, etc.:

      “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

      When we willfully choose to leave His guidelines and His safe borders, sooner or later we are like the prodigal son when he willfully left his father. Only when we repent and come back are we in safety.

      And if we feel guilty now, here, outside of God’s manifest presence, just think how guilty we would feel in front of God, face to face being judged in heaven, having died without repenting of that one sin!

      It definitely only takes one sin. See Hebrews 10:26-39, Revelation 3:1-5, etc.. If we willfully sin [and we're not just talking about sins like worry here, but lust, hatred, lying, even willful unforgiveness] after being born again we cut ourselves off from God and our names would be removed from the Book of Life.

      We must be holy to see God. And this is what the grace of God is all about: to give us the ability to overcome so we can overcome.

      But I couldn’t say how far into a sin it is where we would be cut off if we died at that point.

      The only safe answer is to say if we know we are doing something wrong (or even are blatantly refusing to do something we know absolutely we are supposed to do), we have just put ourselves in the danger zone.

      We feel guilt because we are guilty. To go out there may be going to far. We are out of God’s safety net on purpose.

      This would probably take revelation from God to know more precisely, and I’ll give an example that I just thought of. But the way I think, if I were to consciously and willfully let myself just lust after a woman, I think all bets are off. I actually think I’m forfeiting my assurance that when I would see Jesus face to face (if I were to die right then) that I would have confidence to enter.

      1 John:

      2:28 Now, little children, remain in him, that when he appears, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

      4:16 We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. 17 In this[,] love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.

      We would have to hang our heads in shame, right. In actuality, we’d probably be totally freaking out, afraid for what we just so unwisely did, thinking like Isaiah.

      6:5 Then I said, “Woe is me! For I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of Armies!”

      We have to be covered by Jesus’ blood. We walk out from His blood covering when we willfully sin sins that lead to death. We enter a place of judgment according to Hebrews 10:26-39.

      Does this happen right away? When does the guilt start, from knowing that we are not right with God?

      I really don’t know for sure where the cut off point is. Is there a grace period where God lets us totally, consciously, absolutely knowingly rebel against Him and we’re still all right?

      The only place of safety is never leaving the safety zone where we fully abide in Him.

      Here is an example of a pastor who would have gone to Hell because he had consciously not forgiven his wife: [video/text] Pastor DIES > goes to HELL because he HADN’T FORGIVEN his wife > AROSE from the dead almost 2 days later > tells story

      Now, the cool thing about learning the truth about who goes to heaven is that once a group of us decides to always abide in God, then we’ll have revival — which is basically just real Christianity happening: us abiding and Jesus responding like He said in John 17, in His glory. And then the world will know — when we are ONE — what I named this website for more than 3 years ago.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — April 23, 2011 @ 12:06 pm | Reply

  48. this typing is aching my fingers lol

    Comment by patrick bell — April 21, 2011 @ 6:53 am | Reply

  49. be ill soon find out when i read the believers conditional security.

    Comment by patrick bell — April 21, 2011 @ 6:55 am | Reply

  50. i really could care less about which side is right my only concern is sticking to god’s word and making sure i get to heaven and escape hell.

    Comment by patrick bell — April 21, 2011 @ 6:56 am | Reply

  51. o yeah and about galatians 5:6 which pretty much i agree with love is the greatest of all the commandments (1 corinthians 7:19) (1 corinthians 13:13) some will probably wonder what about the other 8 since one shouldn’t commit adultry covet place any false gods etc. if 1 act of it can cut 1 off by which im not saying i do.

    Comment by patrick bell — April 21, 2011 @ 7:45 am | Reply

    • Patrick,

      I just wrote Falsehoods: 13 Common Misconceptions About the New Covenant | The Truth: “IF you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” – Paul, the ‘grace’ teacher, which explains the true difference between the old and new covenant.

      Most of what we’re hearing on this subject at churches and on ‘Christian’ radio and TV is really mind-control disinfo programming which we must be vigilant to not come under their spell.

      This is poison that is killing the life of the gospel — keeping most ‘Christians’ from diligently seeking Christ, to be led by Him — and to learn how to always walk in Love.

      Jesus’ Greatest Two commandments have superceded the old covenant’s 10 commandments.

      The requirements to obey are higher in the new covenant, not lower — or even nothing — as many of the grace changers teach.

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — April 23, 2011 @ 10:27 am | Reply

  52. can somebody explain to me the parable of the talents and what do they mean in jesus teachings im very concern about that topic.

    Comment by justin jone — June 6, 2011 @ 1:04 am | Reply

    • Justin,

      I’ve been thinking about your question.

      Especially since you posted it in this salvation related post, is your main concern about this parable regarding whether what we do with our money is a salvation issue or not?

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 7, 2011 @ 8:56 am | Reply

  53. (matthew 25:24-30) what do these talents represent toward us and if we dont fulfill them will we be going to hell because of it like the servant who hid his talents did and if so my concern is what are this talents that we suppose to be doing?

    Comment by justin jone — June 7, 2011 @ 10:48 am | Reply

  54. it sounds like a salvation issue since the slotful servant went to hell for not using his but i dont know what these talents post to mean and how we post to use them im not sure if its money he was actually talking about since he spoke it through a parable.

    Comment by justin jone — June 7, 2011 @ 11:16 am | Reply

    • Justin,

      I’ll try to respond to this soon. First, I responded to Patrick’s comment, below.

      Thanks for wanting to know!

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 8, 2011 @ 10:55 am | Reply

  55. are we called to be christian martyrs, how painful must it be, is that a salvation issue and if so i dont think im able to stand such a painful faith like those that died for christ do we have to be killed in a horrible way as they did?

    Comment by patrick bell — June 8, 2011 @ 7:03 am | Reply

    • Patrick,

      First of all, bless you for asking this important question!

      I was recently listening to Jim Caviezel reading Christ’s words in my audio Bible, saying this from Matthew 13:

      44 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.

      45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

      I think this is so cool because being with God for eternity is so totally awesome that whatever we have to do to obtain this is absolutely totally worth it!

      No one who has been in heaven and has come back to earth to talk about it has wanted to leave heaven. Heaven is home. Heaven is so worth it!

      And then we can look at this “joy” factor. When we totally sell out to God, saying “okay, I’m yours. I will follow you no matter what it costs me,” then the joy of the Lord will be our strength, literally. When we are no longer riding the fence but we totally jump in.

      And we can count on the 2-Corinthians-1 concept to kick in if things get really rough, which seems likely at this point.

      “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.” (2 Cor. 1:3-5)

      And remember this, which we can also totally count on literally happening:

      God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1Cor. 10:13)

      If you’ve studied the martyrs and how they were often so wonderfully in the presence of God that they didn’t even feel pain. The book, Tortured for Christ is a good example, about the experience of Richard Wurmbrand. Fox’s Book of Martyrs is also quite interesting.

      One of my favorite movies is The Robe, which I write about here: ‘The Robe’ (1953) — The God of All Comfort! Awesome, awesome, awesome!!!

      And consider this quote from: Corrie Ten Boom: Prepared for the Coming Tribulation:

      When I was a little girl…, I went to my father and said, “Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.” “Tell me,” said Father, “When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?”

      “No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.” “That is right,” my father said, “and so it is with God’s strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need – just in time.

      In addition, Jesus’ prayer that we would all be ONE with each other in Himself should be happening soon, so we’ll be more tangibly walking in the Spirit 24/7 anyway. He promises in John 17 that He will give us the glory to help us be ONE.

      I don’t know about you, but I’ve already experienced this to some very significant degrees already. But the church is pretty disobedient right now so we’re not yet regularly experiencing this. But if we make the commitment to abide in Christ no matter what it takes — not matter who we have to apologize to in order to get things right — and no matter what we have to go through ONE could happen really, really soon.

      He will draw near to us when we draw near to Him — guaranteed. It’s up to us. He’s waiting to bring us into His glory here on earth. We may have to suffer some serious things, or it may just be quick — losing our heads. But so what, when we look at the great pearl we will then have forever!

      And He will never leave us or forsake us no matter what we have to go through.

      What we don’t want to do is be uncommitted, because then we might still have to go through stuff, but then we’re on our own, powerless and comfortless. And the end won’t be good either — where we’ll spend eternity.

      The key is to jump all the way in: take up our cross and follow Him no matter what. Then He will give us the grace to go through whatever.

      I really do recommend watching the movie, The Robe. It’s a story you can remember for the rest of your life, and the Christian community there was so Christlike too — so unlike most ‘churches’ today.

      Part 3 of this post may also give you comfort and great hope: ALCC Reinstates Group Prayer? | My Thoughts on the Worship Room Concept | Joyner’s Vision: “One of the Greatest Adventures of All Time!”

      So Patrick, what do you think?

      Jeff Fenske : )

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 8, 2011 @ 10:54 am | Reply

  56. a response to this question would be very supportive and appreciated.

    Comment by patrick bell — June 8, 2011 @ 7:05 am | Reply

  57. hello again i would like to add something to what patrick just ask,does that also mean i should cancel all of my military goals that i had if we have to forsake all and follow christ just a simple question i thought i might add if you dont mind answering it?

    Comment by justin jone — June 9, 2011 @ 12:04 pm | Reply

  58. well im not in yet i was gonna get to begin my career and go to school in the military but if i have to forsake all my plansthen that means i gonna have cancel my career.

    Comment by justin jone — June 10, 2011 @ 7:13 am | Reply

    • Justin,

      Well, this is good timing then. Bible teacher Bob Mumford has said something like ~”big decisions need big guidance.”

      With ‘big guidance,’ he’s talking about getting a really clear dream or vision, or perhaps we often are hearing a similar phrase when we’re just awakening from sleep, for example, when we’re not directing our own thoughts. I talk about this here: Hearing God’s Voice: Brief Repeat Phrases

      You’ve obviously done a lot of research and thinking about this huge decision. And it can be hard for humans in general to be open to what God is telling us if we have a strong desire to do something already. Hopefully, the evidence of what the military is really up to will help balance that out and you can really just be open to do what God is leading you to do.

      “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.” Paul said in Romans 8. There is no way I’d ever make a decision this important without knowing for sure what God is telling me about it.

      And personally, there is no way I would fight in any of these recent wars, period — even if I was enlisted. You know what that means.

      And what about the experimental vaccines you’ll likely get. It’s common knowledge that about 2/3 of the Gulf War I vets have gulf war syndrome. Many are dead, and their wives even got infected with whatever this is — very possibly anthrax vaccine related.

      On the other hand. I would not flat out tell you to not enlist either. We should all do what we believe we are supposed to do — what we believe God wants us to do. But I would never do something this consequential without knowing for sure that God wanted me to do it. And God probably still is calling some people to enlist, but I would imagine this is fairly rare — considering we’d be signing many of our rights away to then follow leaders who are in many cases following Satan’s agenda instead of God’s — or even just the simple agenda of defending our country.

      I’m grateful there are some Godly soldiers in the military. For example, some believe that a general may have stopped a false-flag event off of our eastern coast, fairly recently. If this is true, he better be careful. Look at what our government did to General Patton, for example, even way back then: Had Only America Known: U.S. Intelligence Assassinated General Patton, Who Wanted to Free Eastern Europe Before Coming Home

      Things are so much different than the way most of us have been taught. And a lack of knowing real history is partly why Sarah Palin’s attitude is so prevalent yet so wrong:

      [video] Sarah Palin demonstrates why most evangelicals dissed Ron Paul, who wanted to bring the troops home. ‘Christians’ have two sets of books: one for US and one for THEM (“who don’t deserve rights”). THEY’re not our ‘neighbor’ whom Jesus commanded US to love as much as ourselves. Maybe that’s why most evangelicals refuse to investigate 9/11. If THEY didn’t take down the towers…???

      It’s also interesting that Sarah Palin, if she runs for President, may be the most pro war candidate running; even though, she is an evangelical ‘Christian.’ She’s the opposite of Ron Paul in foreign policy. Pat Buchanan: “On foreign policy … Ron Paul and Sarah Palin are on opposite sides completely.” What would Jesus do? How can she be so pro war and still a Christian? She even suggested that Georgia join NATO, so we would then fight Russia to defend Georgia!

      I think the answer is very clear, which I wrote here: Can Sarah Palin be a real, going-to-heaven Christian? She just so clearly does not fit into the parameters God has set for those who are really Christians: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?

      And she’s leading many people astray, which is so sad. I live about 40 miles from her home church, where she was not fully taught the truth about what real Christianity is. But her ‘church’ is so like so many American ‘churches’ …

      Anyway, I think you can see where I’m coming from here. I do plan on somewhat thoroughly covering the parable of the talents and salvation issue. In my Who-Goes-To-Heaven article, I didn’t write a summary on purpose; though, it’s likely that I will in the future. And this post (which I’ll link to and announce here) will be somewhat of a summary, based upon the scriptures that say who goes to heaven.

      In summarizing what I’m saying here about your should-I-join question, I can easily say this. If you’re not sure God is calling you to join, absolutely do not. There is just no way I would join an organization which has become this evil, and in which you are signing many of your rights away, may be required to kill people, take experimental vaccines, etc., unless I knew absolutely for sure God was telling me to join because He had a particular role for me that was His will.

      I’d rather sweep streets with a broom and be a pauper than do evil. But no doubt, there are probably a number of things a person can do in the military that would not be evil. There would probably be evil all around though. The temptations would probably be off the charts.

      It’s not like during WWII, when most military men sincerely believed they were fighting a worthy cause. But even then, FDR goaded Japan to attack US through a multi-step program intentionally to get the American people to support our entrance into WWII. See http://www.amazon.com/Day-Deceit-Truth-About-Harbor/dp/0743201299 . I’ve started writing posts about this, but never finished. I have read the book.

      Jesus wants us to “come out from them and be separate.” He wants us to be squeaky clean.

      If America’s soil was actually attacked, it wouldn’t require most Americans to have to go through boot camp, where we’re taught how to hate in order to be able to kill. There is a right time to fight. But consider what happens when our wars aren’t moral, but they still require men (and now women) to kill:

      The Boot-Camp Factor: The Hate & Anger Factory Where Men are Programmed to Kill and Then Become Our Dads?!! Our Pastors?!!!

      Military BOOT CAMP kills the conscience so soldiers can do evil without being convicted in their hearts

      I’ve worked with these guys, and have attended churches where the pastors were taught to hate in boot camp (no wonder they’re not interested in learning the truth about what the Bible really says). We’re talking demonic forces here that empower the drill sergeants to indoctrinate the recruits to also be demonically driven to hate.

      And then they become pastors and think it’s okay to hate and James-3 curse those whom they see as a threat to their ministry.

      Hate is never okay. And military rapes and suicides are just a few of the statistics that show that our military is mostly very dark, spiritually. And now, it’s a known fact that gang members, etc. are joining.

      Did you hear the truth about what really happened to Pat Tillman, friendly fire, possibly intentionally. The military lied to cover that up, and invented the Jessica Lynch story.

      It’s best to find out what’s really going on now, instead of those who only find out after they’ve joined.

      Perhaps this scripture also applies. Romans 14:22,23

      Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn’t judge himself in that which he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn’t of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.

      If you could join the military knowing deep in your heart this is the right thing, mainly because you’ve gotten clear guidance from the Holy Spirit….

      Most pastors would probably just encourage you to join, but most pastors aren’t spirit-led in almost everything, these days. Most are in BIG trouble with God.

      “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.”

      That’s the bottom line that most pastors won’t even admit or preach anymore.

      We are living in the dark ages; though, this time it isn’t because of a lack of information.

      Thank you for wanting to do the right thing!

      “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.” He will help you decide.

      Blessings!

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 10, 2011 @ 3:20 pm | Reply

  59. well i had planed out my career to work on airplanes in the future once i join the airforce i really have no desire to kill people just to have a career while my main goal is to enter heaven by which only a few will scarcely be saved (1 peter 4:18) (proverbs 11:31).

    Comment by justin jone — June 12, 2011 @ 8:40 am | Reply

    • Justin,

      James said in chapter 4:

      13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow let’s go into this city, and spend a year there, trade, and make a profit.” 14 Whereas you don’t know what your life will be like tomorrow. For what is your life? For you are a vapor, that appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. 15 For you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will both live, and do this or that.” 16 But now you glory in your boasting. All such boasting is evil. 17 To him therefore who knows to do good, and doesn’t do it, to him it is sin.

      I know that most ‘Christians’ just do whatever they decide on their own to do, and call it good, but God doesn’t grade on the curve. He’s going to grade us based upon what His word and what the Holy Spirit has been telling us (or trying to. Most are either not listening, or have more than one voice, demons + the Holy Spirit, so they can’t clearly here God — which is another reason to not give demons a place and to pray in the Spirit a lot).

      By joining the military, you may put yourself in a situation in which you would lose your salvation. Or God may have specific plans for you that you would not be able to do because of the multiple year commitment.

      I would suggest doing more homework while also listening to God, being totally open to whatever He wants. And I would pray in the Spirit and keep myself squeaky clean so you can clearly hear God.

      From the little you’ve written here, it sounds like you haven’t spent much time researching what the military is really up to, or you probably wouldn’t want anything to do with it.

      I’d suggest you research really thoroughly what’s going on. I have hundreds of posts at ToBeFree that could help you. And I just put up the two posts on Pearl Harbor that I had mostly ready to go but hadn’t finished. Here is one, which links to others:

      [real history] The Bombing of Pearl Harbor: Roosevelt sacrificed over 2400 American Seamen’s lives to bring US into WWII — By the time that Japan finally attacked all eight steps in the intelligence memo had occurred. Prior to the invasion, most Americans were isolationists.

      My guess is that if you did more research you could end up being much more open minded about what to do. And in that place it’s so much easier to hear God’s still, small voice — and even want to hear it. And I’m talking about dreams and visions also, which are supposed to be norm, according to what Peter said on Pentecost; though, hardly any pastors are even being led by the Spirit these days of deep darkness.

      In the above passage, James apparently is here talking about a commitment that is far less than enlisting into the military, which has so many ramifications even if you’re just working on the planes that will be used to further the military agenda.

      Here is an example from my life in how I rightly did it. I was living with a church family a little over 20 years ago, which turned out to be a really oppressive situation. I was also considering attending seminary in the lower-48 (I live in Alaska), so I talked with those whom I knew had attended seminary, and I did a lot of research in the schools’ course catalogs, etc..

      I decided that if I’d go, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School sounded like the best choice. But I didn’t enroll, not being sure if this was God’s will or not.

      So on one night that was particularly difficult with this family, I went down to my room, got on my knees and asked God what I should do about this living situation. I heard: “Go to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and take out student loans.”

      And that’s it. But that’s all I needed to hear to know for sure that I should go and that it was okay to take out student loans to be able to do it.

      I’m also doing fine-art landscape photography because of a dream that I had.

      I can also tell you that I think I missed at least one opportunity in the early ’80s, where I think God was telling me to work for a different airline, but I thought my job was so good…. Since then, our company has gone through many challenges, and we’re always at the edge of losing our jobs, even though I’ve been there over 30 years.

      I also found out another reason why I should have taken this other job, besides that it would be totally stable even today, and I’d be making about 50% more than I am.

      It is a Godly incentive to want to make decisions that will affect our salvation. Jesus and the Bible writers mentioned this over and over. But it’s also good to know that God loves us infinitely, and whatever He wants us to do is the best thing to do. If we make up our own mind without seeking His, we put ourselves in a dangerous place, or just a place that isn’t as good as what He would want us to do.

      Jesus said “follow me” to the disciples. He didn’t say “just say this little prayer.”

      What does it mean to love the Lord, our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength? The 10 commandments weren’t replaced with nothing, like is commonly taught. We now have the Greatest Two and the Holy Spirit, who gives us the grace to do them.

      And when we’re abiding in Him we have peace and joy; though, it can be really lonely without others walking with us until real Christianity happens, which I call ONE, from John 17). Then it will be easy to walk with Him, when others are on the boat with us.

      I’ve been thinking about your talents question. I’ll probably put together a lot of scriptures for you, myself and others to think about. One of my key texts may be what Romans 8:1 truly says (the NIV and some other Bibles remove the second half of the verse):

      Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

      I think the biggest indicator of whether we’re right enough with God to go to heaven or not is whether we feel condemnation, which most pastors say can’t be true of Christians, because we’re automatically in Christ; though, Paul totally differs not only verse 8:1b, but also in 8:4, and elsewhere.

      If we don’t feel totally comfortable with God now, we’ll really not feel comfortable when we see Him face to face!

      We should stay right with Him in everything we do. And if we’re not right, we should do everything we have to in order to get right.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 12, 2011 @ 9:12 pm | Reply

  60. o yeah and what about the parable of the talents is that dealing with salvation and if so how are we suppose to use them?

    Comment by justin jone — June 12, 2011 @ 8:43 am | Reply

    • Justin,

      I’ll get on it. I’m glad you’re still interested, and I’ve been thinking about how to lay this out.

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 12, 2011 @ 8:12 pm | Reply

    • Justin,

      Sorry for taking so long. I have a lot of things going on. I’m putting together an answer based upon numerous scriptures, in order to get a balanced perspective.

      In the meantime, John 15 is a huge key. When we’re truly connected to the Vine we will naturally bear fruit. It just happens, unless we shut off the flow.

      For example, I don’t do these blogs to go to heaven. I research, write and post because I have a passion to do so. I see a great need and I’m trying to help. But if I just sat on my hands and didn’t use my gifts…? [video] Francis Chan’s ‘Last Sermon’ — There will be no cowards in heaven

      In John 15, Jesus also speaks about what happens to those ‘Christians’ who aren’t really connected, so they don’t produce fruit that remains (no matter how good it looks to the sheeple now).

      This is also very interesting: [4-minute video] Francis Chan: The Balance Beam

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 20, 2011 @ 4:21 am | Reply

  61. how must we apply ourself to a christian martydom if i may ask,are what will happen if 1 is in danger of being exposed to it (luke 22:33-34) (john 21:18-19)?

    Comment by patrick bell — June 16, 2011 @ 8:01 am | Reply

  62. patrick i like your question about this type of situation and i always feel comforted through psalms david spoke of in these types of threats by his enemies (psalms 16:8-9) (psalms 18:18) (psalms 28:7)

    Comment by justin jone — June 16, 2011 @ 8:18 am | Reply

  63. after examining this website don’t you people know that if you lose your salvation you can never get saved again since no blood is shed for you a second time (hebrews 10:26).

    Comment by Anonymous — June 28, 2011 @ 3:54 pm | Reply

    • I don’t think it’s likely that most would logically come to your conclusion naturally. I know I never have; though, I’ve read this in OSAS commentaries of this scripture, because they have so much difficulty with this text, which is just one of many that prove we can lose our salvation through willful sinning certain sins, many of which are listed here: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?.

      This text does not say this condition is irreversible, that it’s impossible to repent after willfully sinning. It is after we die though. It just says the state we are in if we willfully sin. We all know we can repent after willfully sinning sins that separate us from God based upon 1 John 1:9, the prodigal son parable, and many other texts. God will run to us when we come back to Him.

      [Notice that verse 38 is probably Martin Luther's favorite OSAS text, Romans 1:17: "The just shall live by faith;" though, we see here that it's clearly not OSAS. Luther and many others mainly from misreading Paul's introductions. And then they have the impossible situation of trying to explain this and so many other texts away.]

      What matters is what condition we are in when we die. Have we been unrepentantly, willfully sinning, or are we abiding in Christ, having crucified our flesh according to the second list in Galatians 5, walking according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Romans 8:1b), etc..

      According to Jesus’ Church of Sardis example (Rev. 3:1-6), our names are written in the Book of Life (probably when we are born-again) and only those who are clothed in white (because they have overcome) when they die will not have their names removed from the Book of Life.

      I would suggest you read the texts in my ‘Who-Goes’ article. This really is just one of many that totally refutes OSAS. Yet there is not even one that refutes the believer’s conditional security.

      When Jesus said “narrow is the way,” He was serious, regardless of how wide and easy present day preachers make the road.

      It’s tragic that the deception is so great in these times that people aren’t told the truth about what is required of them once they become born-again. But that is the nature of these times. Jesus prophesied that the deception would be great in the last days, so we should expect that what is mainstream is probably false, especially when it gives ‘Christians’ license to sin while thinking they are going to heaven — though they don’t feel right with God in their hearts. But “that is just conviction, not condemnation, because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because they have been born-again.” Wrong, totally false doctrine!!!

      But that isn’t what Paul said in Romans 8:1 (unless we read the NIV, which is among the modern ‘translations’ that took 1b out; though, 8:4 is still there, saying virtually the same thing).

      1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

      To be “in Christ,” we must truly abide in Christ like Paul really said here and according to what Jesus said in John 15. Otherwise the branches that don’t produce fruit (because we haven’t been connected to the Vine from which we get sap to grow fruit) will be thrown into the fire and burned = Hell.

      Or in the words of the writer to Hebrews:

      26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth [if we don't truly abide in Christ], there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. …

      36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — June 29, 2011 @ 7:45 pm | Reply

  64. perphaps lets examine mr fenske’s view of being saved again if its possible.(Hebrews 6:4-6) it amazes me how people overlook the if in verse 6 since that answer’s verse 9

    Comment by Mr Anonymous — June 30, 2011 @ 3:21 pm | Reply

    • Dear Mr. Anonymous,

      I appreciate your points. You are the first person ever who has caused me to rethink my 1975 analysis of Hebrews 10. I’ll study this much more to try to make sure what is happening here. If Hebrews 10 does prove to be a restatement of Hebrews 6, then I’ll definitely change what I say about it in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way. I wouldn’t expect this to change my conclusions at all in Who-Goes…, because there are so many texts that say the same thing about who goes.

      I covered Hebrews 6 in post #17, above, saying how this scripture actually affected my walk with God negatively, until I realized it was a special circumstance, which Dan Corner explains in the link in post #17.

      Incidentally, this specific topic is very important. It is very dangerous to believe it is very hard to lose one’s salvation. This is the main reason why most present day ‘Christians’ are willfully sinning serious sins. People who say that our salvation doctrine doesn’t affect how we live are probably only correct regarding a small handful of people. But for the rest of us, what we believe about who goes to heaven is huge! This is why there are so many New Testament warnings about losing our salvation, whether pastors preach them or not — so we have a great incentive to live holy no matter what.

      Dan also concludes that Hebrews 10 is similar to Hebrews 6, which says these once true believers put Jesus “to open shame” — which may be related to the unpardonable sin — denying Christ in some extreme way that the prodigal son parable no longer applies, because there is no possible way to repent.

      I don’t see this at all in the other texts in my Who-Goes article. You are welcome to check me on this, which is what I want. I’m interested in what the truth is, period.

      Mr. Anonymous, I get a lot of anonymouses, so I don’t know who is who. For example, in post #17, which I just referred to, I was responding to an anonymous, so I don’t know if that was you or not. And an anonymous commenter recently asked about what “insulted the Spirit of grace” means. I’m guessing that was you, but don’t know.

      It’s possible that this is referring to the sin against the Holy Spirit. If this is true, I definitely will have to change how I use Hebrews 10 in Who Goes….

      We need to look at what the whole New Testament says about who goes to heaven, which is what I’ve done. According to what the Bible really says, most “Christians” I know, including most pastors aren’t currently going to heaven; though, they’ve been born-again. But they can repent according to 1 John and etc., and abide in Christ again. And then we can have real Christianity happening in our midst. What we have now is disgusting.

      Please carefully read Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way to see the New Testament theme. It’s very easy to lose one’s salvation according to many scriptures. Most “Christians” are not abiding in Christ, within the who-goes-to-heaven lists.

      I think how it generally works (for most “Christians”) is what I’ve said about Revelation 3:1-6, Sardis. Our names are written in the Book of Life, but those who don’t overcome will have their names removed after they die.

      Those in Hebrews 6 apparently already had their names removed. I’m not sure yet if Hebrews 10 is similar.

      I’ll be studying and praying about Hebrews 10. If you or anyone have any further insight I’m interested.

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — July 4, 2011 @ 1:37 am | Reply

  65. mr fenske replied with the prodical son parable as dead and alive again proven that he lost his salvation well if he lost it why did they kill the fattened calf did not jesus say in hebrews 6:6 you crucify the son of god afresh putting him to public shame? here’s my view of him being dead and alive again (ephesians 2:5)(colossians 2:13).the fattened calf refutes that nonsense of him losing his salvation.im not mad dont get any ideas i just dont get why people overlook the key texts thats written in the scriptures?

    Comment by Mr Anonymous — June 30, 2011 @ 4:18 pm | Reply

    • Mr. Anonymous,

      I didn’t say the ‘prodigal son’ proves he had lost his salvation. I concluded that the prodigal son lost his salvation based upon what so many scriptures say about who goes to heaven.

      I explained Hebrews 6 in the above comment, and I believe that almost all of today’s prodigal sons and daughters can repent and again abide in Christ, so they will again be attached to the Vine in order to be able to bear fruit, and not be thrown into the fire and burned (John 15) — which is the current condition of so many.

      Most ‘Chriistians’ have guilty consciences, which really is condemnation according to how Romans 1a and 1b (not in the NIV, except in 8:4) reads.

      I think much of the fall of Christianity in these past decades is because of the really bad, Westcott/Hort-based translations.

      Jesus wants to run towards you, those of you who aren’t right with God and your neighbors. Please, He’s waiting — so sad — His heart is broken — waiting, wanting to run back to you and hold you in His arms of love!

      Then the world will know (John 17).

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — July 4, 2011 @ 1:49 am | Reply

  66. god chasens those he receives (hebrews 12:6-8) if you are without chasement he says you’re bastards not you have loss your salvation are you cease to be a son he says you never were a son those in matthew chapter 7 that say lord lord look at the wonderful things we done jesus says i never knew you,not i knew you for a lil while are you was doing really well till you messed up are backslid,my last response is this;if jesus have to come back on that cross and shed his blood like bulls and goats in the old testament how many times would he have to do it since even christian makes mistakes in there life seems to me that he would probably have to shed his blood on that cross over a billion times by which it’s a tragedy.

    Comment by Mr Anonymous — June 30, 2011 @ 4:34 pm | Reply

    • Dear Mr. Anonymous,

      It’s very dangerous to assume that you are still a going-to-heaven Christian because you are still chastised, or even because you have some of the gifts of the Spirit.

      I don’t know anyone who has ever lost his gift to speak in tongues, for example; though, I know many tongues-speakers (most don’t speak in tongues much anymore though, but they could) who James-3 curse people, therefore disqualifying themselves from going to heaven, unless they repent. “Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer….”

      And God hasn’t given up on them either. They still get chastised, but most aren’t repenting, because they think they can be evil in their hearts and still go to heaven based upon once-saved-always-saved or its twin brother: “it’s hard to lose one’s salvation.”

      We need to read what the whole New Testament says about who goes to heaven, which amazingly, hardly anyone does.

      And please be careful about putting too much emphasis on Paul’s introductory verses, which OSAS and hard-to-lose-one’s-salvation people mainly quote.

      And you brought up Matthew 7:23, a favorite verse of OSAS adherents, who then mostly aren’t fulfilling the rest of the previous verse: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

      Many are being scandalized (a Bob Mumford term) by overemphasizing the texts they hear over and over, without looking at the big picture.

      Most people have a canon within the Canon, which is the cause of much error: D. A. Carson: The Problem of the Canon Within the Canon — A subset of scriptures taught in exclusion of those that would result in true doctrine. “We badly need to listen to one another, especially when we least like what we hear.”

      There are so many scriptures that specifically and directly say who goes to heaven and who are the sons and daughters of God: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?. Why not major on the crystal clear texts instead of making theoretical indirect sonship deductions?

      Personally, I don’t know how Matthew 7:23 precisely works. And I’m currently unsure in how Hebrews 10 totally works too. But there are so many crystal clear scriptures that agree with each other, saying directly who goes to heaven and who are God’s children that I don’t have to understand how every single piece precisely works to know the general picture.

      And the general picture doesn’t look too good for most “Christians” right now, because they’ve been deceived by OSAS and “it’s hard to lose one’s salvation” doctrines, which I think are heresies. These doctrines totally shun the clear-cut scriptures that tell us directly, and they major on Paul’s introductions, ignoring what Paul directly says later in the same books — unwilling to admit this is Paul’s writing style.

      Many have been outfoxed by doctrines of demons, which are reinforced by demons that are in most ‘Chrisitans,’ because there is so much sin and so little prayer, especially praying in tongues — which demons hate and want downplayed.

      Demons don’t want us to pray perfectly so we can be free.

      We should hear only one voice. And we should all be led by the Spirit (what Romans 8 says in real Bibles). What passes for “Christianity” today is so not Christianity.

      The Holy “Spirit will lead you into all truth.” That is the norm. The Holy Spirit is supposed to help us figure these things out. We have so many false doctrines today because most people aren’t Spirit-led. Seminaries totally ignore this!

      And “the truth will set us free.” And most “Christians” aren’t free because they aren’t walking in the truth — thinking they can go to heaven anyway.

      We need to wake up. Tomorrow may be too late.

      Pay attention to your dreams. Pray in the Spirit. Give thanks. Lock the door to sin. Keep the demons out. Don’t give them a place. Make sure there is only one voice, and do what He says. And make sure you’re not getting mad deep inside when thinking about challenges to these doctrines.

      We all need to be in the who-goes-to-heaven list in Galatians 5, which includes being in “peace.”

      Fight the good fight. Demons are battling for our souls everyday. We must overcome, the Bible says; though, the scriptures that say this get hardly any air time.

      The Devil is mostly winning. We need to turn this around, 180 degrees, big-time!!!

      Jesus is waiting. He wants to be Lord of our lives — or we’re going to pay the price.

      The deception in the last days will be great: Baruch: “Not only is DECEPTION of the church possible, it was PROPHESIED TO HAPPEN!” — Jesus said “IN THE LAST DAYS THE MAJORITY WILL BE DECEIVED, take heed that it doesn’t happen to you” — “FALSE TEACHERS are actually SPEAKING SPELLS with the words of their FALSE DOCTRINES!”

      We need to get out of the matrix no matter what it takes!!!

      Jeff Fenske

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — July 4, 2011 @ 2:55 am | Reply

  67. seems to me as though you speak of people thats not really saved to begin with just as judas who was not given by the father but only seem like he was (john 6:64-66) this was the same error that dan said on a radio station in front many listening audiences who knows how many people actually believed it theres a difference between true christians and professing christians notice in john 6:60-66 they’re called his disciples,hmm would seem like they truly are since they’re his but john 6:65 is clearly stated that even they weren’t given by the father by which i’ve refuted post tribber with that false heresy of saying judas was given by the father.See how people ain’t really getting the whole picture of what scripture has to say i can clearly see why this deception is so great even people that seem like they’re actually putting scripture in place are always off in other places that dont add up.now since we know the evidence of his disciples and those that are given by the father now we can go back to john 6:37-40.lets examine john 10:14 before john 10:27 a little harder the scripture you all been at war with for so long by which isaiah can clear this up (isaiah 40:11) (isaiah 53:11).

    Comment by Mr Anonymous — July 4, 2011 @ 10:55 pm | Reply

  68. the steps of a good man is ordered by the lord: and he delighted in his ways.though he (FALL) he shall not be utterly cast done for the lord upholdeth him with his hand. (Psalm 37:23-24).did you know that you people looked into john 10:27 only as being in christ hand? jesus used the term his hand and the father’s hand so i clearly see 2 hands mensioned in this passage.i can clearly see those that are truly given by the father and those that aren’t. ill answer your revalations comment about being blotted from the book of life when i get more time in.

    Comment by Mr Anonymous — July 4, 2011 @ 11:03 pm | Reply

  69. Can somebody explain to me the sin of omission, and how serious is it, and can it cost us our salvation?

    Comment by patrick bell — August 25, 2011 @ 11:31 pm | Reply

    • Patrick,

      I compiled scriptures that discuss this, and have been dragging my feet on finishing the project. This has been a frustrating year for me. It seems that hardly anyone is willing to step up and do their parts to get real Christianity going. I need to do what I said I was going to do anyway.

      And if you want a list of what scriptures I’m looking at, let me know.

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — August 31, 2011 @ 10:37 pm | Reply

  70. Adam and Eve never lost their salvation when they sinned. Sin just created a boundary in-between God and man. As Corner says, in some situations we can lose our salvation. That would then imply that every time we sin, or lose our salvation, as Corner puts it, we would then have to ask God into our hearts again. This is false. The Bible says that we will go through trials and temptations, being a Christian is always a work in progress. There is never a point where you will be fully satisfied with your relationship with God, because humans are naturally sinful! This is what happened ever since the fall, that is why the road to salvation is difficult. If we believed that we could live perfectly somehow on this earth, we deceive ourselves because while we are still on this earth, we will always be blocked by that barrier of sin that separates us from God. “Our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens.” Ezra 9:6. Our only hope is to accept that we are sinful and embrace the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ as our own thorough our legal bound.

    I also don’t understand why predestination is considered false. In stating that it is it means that God’s plan isn’t really a plan, it’s more of a structure that God set up and we just play around in. It completely undermines the reality that God is omnipotent in every situation, to every human-being. Predestination is in the Bible! What??? Yes! It is! In Romans 9:15 it says. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” And in Ephesians Paul tells us that we have been predestined according to God’s will. This means that every act of salvation in the heart of an individual is because God willed it to be so. Those who believe that it is completely up to them are convincing themselves that they somehow control God’s plan and the result of what happens was a little of God and a little of them. They think that they can control God’s plan and mold it around themselves. Who is man to question the will of God? Romans 9:21 ” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”

    Comment by Mark Lehn — August 26, 2011 @ 8:58 pm | Reply

    • Mark,

      Adam and Eve lived under a totally different covenant. And David lived under another one. I’m interested in what God tells us is true specifically under the new covenant, which is what I major on in: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?

      Regarding God’s responsibility and our responsibility. Predestination, the way you teach it disregards many scriptures that show your conclusions here cannot be Biblical. There are many scriptures that specifically state what our responsibility is, and then God will give us the grace to do our part.

      The best resource I can think of, if you really have a heart to hear, is this:

      [Video] Joe Schimmel: The Great Deception—Once Saved, Always Saved

      There is no doubt that “…God our Savior; who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.”

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — August 31, 2011 @ 10:29 pm | Reply

  71. yes can you show me the scriptures that deals with this topic about the sin of omission?

    Comment by patrick bell — September 1, 2011 @ 4:42 pm | Reply

  72. ok mr. fenske im back and i would like to start by hearing your view on romans 8:13 since you dan corner and any others apperently see this passage as man’s responsibility to live righteous do you mean we have to stop living this way by our own efforts are is it through christ we put an end to it and im going to respond back my view on it once i heard yours, i believe this is a fair way we can answer each others reply to our views on these scriptures, but im glad that you’re actually taking out time to help people with the hard work that you put forth so far on this website.

    Comment by anonymouse — September 10, 2011 @ 1:02 pm | Reply

    • This may help: Robert Shank: Erroneous “2 natures of the believer” doctrine — Romans 7 is before Paul’s ‘life in the Son’ This is a quotation from Robert Shank’s book, Life in the Son, which is a good resource on this subject.

      We have to live in the Son. That’s our responsibility: to abide in Christ (John 15). It’s a decision we have to make. I was going to say constantly have to make. But, we can set our mind to live in Christ to where we’re not constantly in at least the major struggle, because we haven’t given the demons a place, so they can’t drive us to sin anymore. We’re supposed to find this place of rest, where we just flow.

      And then God gives us the grace, the ability or power to overcome: The meaning of “Grace” (χαρις) in the Bible: It’s not what you think?

      He’ll never allow us to be tempted above what we are able to handle with His enablement, His grace. But we decide whether we’re going to do what we know is right or what we know is wrong. God won’t decide that for us, but He will help us do the right thing when we decide to do it.

      He’ll also be actively encouraging us to do the right thing. We can even feel it. But we have to then decide.

      It is up to us, with God’s help. It has to be up to us. That’s why there are so many warning verses that give us the consequences if we decide to do certain things.

      I don’t think this is confusing, actually. It’s Calvinism that needs obscure formulas to try to crowbar in their strange ideas, trying to get texts that are clearly written to mean something totally different in order to fit their God-determines-everything formula.

      It’s good to just put Calvinism aside, and just read what the texts say without having biased glasses on. I’m not saying you are doing this, but many have a strong internal bias to read texts a certain way because of how they were taught, or especially because one or more people prayed (which can be James-3 curses) that they would accept the Lutheran or Calvinist doctrine, etc.. And when people have religious spirits compelling them in a certain direction, it’s important to determine to follow only the Holy Spirit, and not let familiar spirits guide us at all.

      I also think it’s important to pray in the Spirit, which I have a category on here in the Categories pull-down menu, called Pray Perfectly in Tongues. This is one of the main ways God has given us to overcome. But we have to decide to pray this way. God won’t make us even speak one word in tongues. He wants us to. He’s told us to. He prompts us to, but it’s up to us. Then He gives us the words to speak.

      This is true for those who have never prayed in tongues at all, and is true for those who already have, but no longer think it’s important or something. It is!

      The world is so carnal. So many have been swept up into it. We need to use our spiritual gifts to overcome — for those of you who aren’t.

      Does this help?

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — September 10, 2011 @ 9:50 pm | Reply

  73. The doctrine of “once saved, always saved!” (OSAS) is an extreme position and not necessarily true. Its deceptive intent, “ye shall not surely die” was first used by Satan in the Garden of Eden against Eve.

    Dangerously, it remains a widespread ploy used today across the landscape of our country. Multitudes are deceived. Yes, we have to receive Christ, but that’s the inception. Really, we were saved, are saved, and will be saved IF we continue in and through His grace, for example, loving, obeying and following Him. No, we can’t save ourselves, but there is something to do through His grace, and that’s the distinction between loving, obeying and following and our own good works, the latter of which will save none. This is why we have verses such as Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5, 9, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 – 9 which speak of obedience, a conditional requirement. Now I realize that OSAS adherents don’t like the word “conditional,” but Mr. Dan Corner is correct. It is a matter of conditional security.

    There’s a forgotten metaphor, and it’s that the believer is a pilgrim, on a path, and there’s a great peril.

    Today there’s also a forgotten mission. It’s to leave the City of Destruction and actually reach the Celestial City as Bunyan climatically highlighted in his great classic.

    There’s also a forgotten “must” which is righteousness, imputed, imparted, and inspected (necessary to confess and repent).

    Of salvation, unlike the faultiness of Calvinism’s “irresistible grace” we know grace can indeed be resisted: “Looking diligently lest ANY MAN fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled,” (Heb 12:15).

    Take heed! Beware! There’s a Great Confidence, because of God, and a Great Caution, because man has an enormous capacity for self-deception.

    I recommend that you go to Straitgate.org and to online sermons featuring Roger J. Magnuson. This is the most meaningful preaching I’ve heard in all my decades of living

    Also, you may wish to check out http://www.aportraitoflove.org which includes discussion of this topic.

    Thank you.

    R.E.R.

    Comment by R.E.R. — November 20, 2011 @ 1:17 pm | Reply

    • R.E.R.,

      I agree with what you say, and was delighted to hear that their might be a truth teaching pastor in the Twin Cities. I grew up in Minneapolis and in Bloomington, Minnesota. But I listened to major parts of two of his messages (one is entitled “Salvation: Past, Prospective, Present”), and I didn’t hear the clear truth about who goes to heaven. Is there a message that they have posted in which he tells it like it is.

      Here is my take on it: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?

      Jeff Fenske
      Anchorage, Alaska

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — November 20, 2011 @ 4:34 pm | Reply

  74. okay im back now sorry for the delay,now lets examine mr. fenkskes view of rev 3:5 apparently dan corners and everyone else thinks this verse is a warning but before we use our own opinions on this verse mabye we should let the apostle who wrote about overcoming explain it for himself and why. (1 john 5:4) (1 john 2:13) mr fenske apparently believes once your name is in the book you have to overcome for it not to be erased seems as though he forgot that you’re already an overcomer so this passage doesn’t sound like a warning but a promise that im glad of since the same john who wrote about it must have the answer to it. and now mr fenske posted its dangerous for me to use emphasis on matthew 7:23,im not over emphasising matthew 7:23 he clearly tells those kind of people i never knew you. im gonna prove to you that matthew 7:23 is directly stated to people that was never saved,notice he tells them depart from me workers of iniquity.what is a worker? im sure we all know the definition to that. (1 john 3:6) says know one who keeps own sinning has either seen him nor known him. so these people who’s called workers of iniquity dont know him wherefore he says depart from me i knever knew you not i knew you for a lil while. im gonna reply with something else when i get more time in that i cited on this website that i have an answer for.

    Comment by Anonymous — November 26, 2011 @ 1:48 pm | Reply

    • You are building a doctrine based upon just a few verses without openly considering the many verses that disagree with your premise, as in:

      Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?

      This is how false doctrine is perpetuated.

      Also, practically speaking, it’s possible there have been and are some, but I don’t know anyone who has been born-again and has never sinned in ways that lead to death, in the list of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5), for example, and the many other texts cited in “Who-Goes-To-Heaven….”

      I have not always been an ‘overcomer.’ Have you, honestly?

      But we are called to be overcomers (Paul’s introductions), and we will if we overcome (from the meat in Paul’s letters, for example).

      We must abide in Christ, what John 15 and Romans 8 really says. See in “Who-Goes-To-Heaven…what the NIV did to butcher Romans 8, and ‘Christians’ who wanted to be saved no matter what ran with it.

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — November 29, 2011 @ 1:35 am | Reply

  75. and also i cited mr fenske says you can lose your salvation through certain sins. moses comitteth murder (exodus 2:12-13) he was forgiven but according to the old testament murderers were put death (exodus 21:12-14) dan has on his website 1 act of murder makes you a bible defigned murderer but he forgot that all murderers were put to death in the old testament so moses should’ve been put to death.but notice that jesus says Moses will be with the lord on the mount of tranfiguration (matthew 17:1-6).dont seem like moses lost his salvation or 1 sin like mr fenske and the others believe can cause lost of it because Moses is with the lord and not hell.does this help with the 1 sin nonsense?

    Comment by Anonymous — November 26, 2011 @ 2:23 pm | Reply

  76. Its amazing how mr fenske accuses me of misusing Romans 8:13 but what does Romans 8:13 say? It says if you mortify the deeds of the flesh you will die but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.How do we put the deeds of the flesh to death mr fenske?notice he gives us the answer he says if by what we put to death the deeds of the flesh the Spirit thats how we put it to death not our own ability.Anytime you see Spirit with a capital S its the spirit of god.and mr fenske also brought up john 15 apparently i assume he means the first 8 verses so lets begin by examinig these (john 15:1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.(john 15:2) Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it, that it may bring forth more fruit.I assume mr fenske believes jesus is addresing this verse to christians but is that what the bible is addressing this passage to lets find out by seeing what jesus said in the parable of the sower.(luke 8:11-15)notice verse 15 proves the only ones that bring forth fruit is the ones that hear the word and keep it there was never a passage where i seen a christian bringing forth fruit temporarily.John 15:2 is implied to those that doesn’t bring fruit because they never were true followers of christ.(john 15:3) when jesus told his disicple they were already clean It does not mean that they were perfect, but that they had been under a process of purifying by his instructions all the time he had been with them. He had removed their erroneous notions of the Messiah; he had gradually reclaimed them from their fond and foolish views respecting earthly honors; he had taught them to be willing to forsake all things; and he had so trained and disciplined them that immediately after his death they would be ready to go and bear fruit among all nations to the honor of his name,judas was excluded from this group when jesus said this see (john 13:10) and they were now all true followers of christ. (john 15:4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
    (john 15:5) I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
    notice the only way we can bear fruit is to remain in christ cause this will determine if we are truly in christ by which mr fenske didn’t get it. (john 15:6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.I hope mr fenske studied ezekiel 15 1-8 before looking into (john 15:6). (john 15:7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.finally the the most important verse that answers this whole passage (john 15:8) In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.notice he said we are his disciples only when we bear fruit,so again mr fenske gave me yet another passage that has nothing to do with losing your salavtion but yet another promise that i am connected to christ since i bear fruit and those that dont bear fruit was never his disciple according to verse 8 glory be to god.

    Comment by Anonymous — November 30, 2011 @ 1:04 pm | Reply

  77. mr fenske said jesus uped the ante im not exactly sure what mr fenske means by this if he means that the way to christ is much more stricter are harder im not exactly sure. but if he means jesus teachings is much harder for us then apperently he didn’t get it (1 john 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome.(matthew 11:29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.(matthew 11:30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.Mr fenske feel free to respond back to me im looking forward into seeing what you have to say and god bless you all.

    Comment by Anonymous — November 30, 2011 @ 1:22 pm | Reply

    • Dear Sir/Ms.,

      The way you address me in the third person as if you’re a trial lawyer trying to convict me doesn’t seem fitting with Christlike love and with how I spoke to you. And here you say “feel free to respond” and “god bless you all?”

      When I see your words like these: “lets examine mr. fenkskes view” and “Its amazing how mr fenske accuses me,” and etc., I don’t even “feel free” to even want to read what you say. I have to eventually because I’m responsible for monitoring this blog, but this isn’t polite conversation.

      This is the kind of thing that happens when people believe they’re going to heaven no matter what and that we don’t have to be in Paul’s second list in Galatians 5 in order to be “Christ’s.”

      Galatians 5

      13 For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don’t use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don’t consume one another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one other, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

      19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

      22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ [Christians – jeff] have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

      Anyone can say “God bless,” but Jesus said “by their fruits you will know them.”

      I think this is related: Kevin Conner: Doctrine Determines the Health of the Church

      And healthy churches make healthy countries. It’s the once-saved-always-saved doctrine that is taking America down.

      The above Galatians-5 text is similar to Romans 8, by the way.

      I feel like if I would only respond to your arguments without pointing out how you are treating me in your comments I’d be enabling an abuser, like in a dysfunctional family. Your writing style isn’t appropriate real-Christian communication. It’s repels me to even want to try to fully read the rest of what you wrote, honestly.

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — December 1, 2011 @ 1:54 pm | Reply

  78. and mabye you should look at the site i made about dan’s book the believer’s conditional security which is called the condition of the believer’s conditional security fully revitilesed and refuted.

    Comment by Anonymous — November 30, 2011 @ 1:24 pm | Reply

  79. http://www.straitgate.org
    features under “online sermons” the following sermons that are pertinent:
    “Exercising Our Senses,” Heb 5:1-14; “Faith Illustrated,” Heb 11:1-16. If one scrolls down quite a ways there’s a message about “Holding,” or “Holding On,” Job 17:1-9, a message that greatly impacted by life.

    If a person scrolls all the way down on the right side of the site it’s possible to view and hear Magnuson’s Magdalen College lectures. These are meaty messages as are all sermons by Magnuson. For this kind of content, more than what’s possible from regular colleges and universities, it would seem as though big bucks should be required, but it’s all available, free! Each presentation is excellent, such as Lectures 3.10; 3.12; 3.16; 3.17; 3.22; 3.24; 1.3; 3.2; 1.1 and each and every other one. Amazing!

    ——————-
    I consider the following:

    Colossians 1:22 – 23
    In the body of his flesh
    through death,
    to present you holy,
    and unblameable,
    and unreproveable
    in His sight:
    If ye continue in the faith
    grounded and settled,
    and be not moved away
    from the hope of the gospel …
    [If it's "once saved, always saved!" (OSAS) why is there the conditional 'if' about the need to continue in the faith?]

    1 Cor 9:27
    But I keep under my body,
    and bring it into subjection:
    lest
    that by any means,
    when I have preached to others,
    I myself should be a castaway.
    [Wow! This is the Apostle Paul recognizing even for himself the possibility of being a castaway!]

    2 Cor 13:5
    Examine yourselves,
    whether
    ye be in the faith;
    prove your own selves…
    Know ye not your own selves,
    how that Jesus Christ is in you,
    except ye be reprobates?
    [If it's "once saved, always saved!" why is it necessary to examine myself about whether I'm in the faith? The point is that a person in declension can end up in a reprobate status, and according to God's Word, that isn't dwelling in the faith and wouldn't be OSAS.]
    Thanks ~ R.E.R.

    Comment by R.E.R. — December 1, 2011 @ 9:42 am | Reply

  80. mr fenske i never said anything about trying to convict you i was only responding to what you posted at me thats why i said lets examine them so all i did was review over the scripture that you posted and i just decided to examine them,and also i dont think i was treating you bad or anything all i said was lets view over your scriptures but if you feel as though i was a little to harsh about them i apoligize and i wont respond anymore.

    Comment by Anonymous — December 2, 2011 @ 7:37 am | Reply

  81. im not really sure but i see more on here which accuses osas as teaching a license for immorality and i never came across anybody who said its okay to commit adultry since im saved have you?

    Comment by Anonymous — December 2, 2011 @ 7:49 am | Reply

  82. Absolutely. I’ve had OSAS people say that King David remained saved during his heinous crimes of adultery, arranged murder and cover-up, an intervening time, before the prophet Nathan came and David repented! Of course their extreme position of OSAS conflicts with the Biblical truth of perishing without repentance as seen in 2 Peter 3:9. True, David repented as did Peter after denying Christ.

    The point is that not everyone repents, and in that case they will be denied before the Father in heaven according to Matthew 10:32-33 and Rev 21:8, clearly not the deceptive hope of OSAS.

    I have also been told that a person can sin vehemently and still go to heaven; that he doesn’t need to have a single characteristic of Christ, but if he received Christ, he still gets to go to heaven; a former pastor said he doesn’t go to church anymore or read the Bible but that he’s going to heaven because “once saved, always saved!” These people have been co-opted by the devil. People make such outlandish statements due to the fact that OSAS traps and corners them with its bogus teaching, deception.

    Unless it were necessary, Hebrews wouldn’t say, “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed…,” How shall we escape, if we neglect…,” “…Consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession…,” “Harden not your hearts…,” “Take heed, brethren…,” “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us…,” “Cast not away therefore your confidence…,” “But if ye be without chastisement… then are ye bastards, and not sons…,” “Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God…,” “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines…” and even more warnings not listed.

    In conclusion, I know I can’t save myself, but I also know that there’s a distinction between a works-based salvation and love and obedience through grace and faith alone in the true God of heaven and earth, the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Matt 7:21, Heb 5:9, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 – 9 all speak about obedience related to salvation or damnation. John 14:15, 1 John 2:3 – 4, and 1 John 3:1 – 24 all point to the necessity of love as seen in obedience.

    Please do not be deceived by Satan’s widespread ploy and false teachers.

    Comment by R.E.R. — December 2, 2011 @ 10:11 pm | Reply

  83. (Colossians 1:23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister. Mr Rer the only ones thats able to bring forth fruit is the ones that keep the gospel and Paul said be not moved away from the hope,our hope is in the gospel Jesus christ.

    Comment by Anonymous — December 6, 2011 @ 5:58 pm | Reply

  84. You’re right there is a condition about not being moved from the gospel the hope that is (john 8:51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

    Comment by Anonymous — December 6, 2011 @ 6:01 pm | Reply

  85. Thank you.
    Others may want to consider:

    Eph 6:11,13
    Put on the whole armour of God,
    that ye may be able to stand
    against the wiles of the devil…
    Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,
    that ye may be able to withstand
    in the evil day,
    and having done all, to stand.

    [Why is it necessary to put on the whole armour of God as though that's needed to withstand in order to end up standing if I'm already "once saved, always saved!"?]

    Galatians 5:4
    Christ is become of no effect unto you,
    whosoever of you are justified by the law;
    ye are fallen from grace.

    [Sure sounds like here's a possibility of falling from "grace" which, after all, is essential: "For by grace are ye saved..." (Eph 2:8)]

    Gal 6:9
    And let us not be weary in well doing:
    for in due season we shall reap,
    if we faint not.

    [Why are we encouraged not to become weary and not to faint in order to reap if it’s already “once saved, always saved!”?

    Comment by R.E.R. — December 7, 2011 @ 4:37 am | Reply

  86. Jeff,

    I believe there are just about as many Scriptures supporting the OACS belief as there are supporting the conditional security belief. For me, 1 Corinthians 3:15 solidifies my belief in OSAS, as it states that “he himself will be saved” even if everything he did is ‘burned up’.

    Just wondered what your thoughts would be on this passage.

    God Bless.

    Comment by Dave — December 7, 2011 @ 10:39 am | Reply

    • Dave,

      Sorry for taking so long to give you my take (I appreciate R.E.R.’s comment). This is good dialogue. I’m just dealing right now with the frustration of seeing the fall of America happen right before our eyes, and I’m just baffled that there are so few people who seem to be really interested in making certain they are even going to heaven. Thank you for being interested, yourself. This is very important, not just for obvious reasons, but also for Jesus’ goal of ‘ONE’ happening (John 17).

      I’m convinced that the Devil is using the OSAS doctrine to put many to sleep spiritually. And now that there are so few in-Christ people who are actually salt and light, America is plummeting at almost free-fall speed. This is a very important doctrine.

      What first came to my mind was what Mike Bickle has shared in which he was a young pastor, but had the same dreams (or visions) a few times, which showed him that he was saved, but as though passing through the flames, saved but his life was wasted.

      This was very sobering to Mike, so he started really pressing in after that to be more Spirit-led and I think more charismatic oriented, to be more in line with what God really wanted him to do.

      I also think that Mike had a pure heart during this time, so he was in the position with God to be saved (he wasn’t willfully sinning sins that lead to death — like the list later in I Corinthians 6:9,10 and the more expanded lists in Galatians 5), but he was missing what God was specifically leading him to do. [I actually think this is still happening at IHOP, or they would have seen the Great Awakening they were rightfully trying to bring in — which I discuss elsewhere in this blog.]

      We don’t go to heaven because we did this or that for God. We go to heaven because we keep our hearts pure, our consciences clean, so we are qualified to enter. “Without holiness no one will see the Lord.”

      – –

      I’d also like to address your statement that there are about just as many scriptures supporting OSAS as the conditional security perspective.

      Dan Corner and others have shown that there isn’t even one scripture that proves OSAS. I’ve just now posted in the links under Dan Corner’s video, above, Joe Schimmel’s excellent video (before I just listed the link). Joe mentions numerous scriptures that by themselves prove the believer’s conditional security.

      There is no contest. There is no doubt that OSAS really is a doctrine of demons. This issue has been settled. OSAS has zero proof scriptures, while the conditional perspective has many! It seems to me that Luther, for example, in his oppressed state, came to believe in OSAS because of an extreme desire to (I believe demon driven), and then in how he misread and overemphasized Paul’s introductory statements, while ignoring dozens of scriptures that totally disproved his thesis, which so many have excepted as fact, without making sure, themselves, having been taught to take Luther’s word for it; though, his actions showed he wasn’t even Biblically qualified to lead according to 1 Timothy and Titus elders’ qualifications (see articles in my Luther Didn’t Get It category).

      And then generation after generation of Lutherans, Calvinists and others have among themselves those who would pray (James-3 cursed, actually) that people just blindly accept the false “I’m going to heaven no matter what” doctrine — because of what He did. “All I have to do is believe” was Luther’s theory; though the scriptures say we must abide in Christ. We must have the fruit of the Spirit operating in our lives. We must be in Paul’s second Galatians-5 list — in peace with God — our consciences not condemning us (Romans 1a has a 1b that the NIV and some other translations removed).

      It’s not about what we’ve accomplished, it’s about our holiness — our right heart — resting in Christ — having crucified our flesh, Paul says in Galatians 5.

      That’s the way I see it,

      Jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — December 14, 2011 @ 10:04 am | Reply

  87. Dear Dave ~ ! Corinthians Chapter 3, from verse six onward is a context about works and “rewards.” Therefore, 1 Cor 3:15 is indeed speaking in terms of different rewards, as it were, from gold, silver and precious jewels down to worthless stubble which will not endure refining but simply be burned up.

    However, we all need to be cautious that we don’t extend “rewards” as the objective or outcome in every situation, as to verses which, on the other hand, pertain to “salvation” rather than “rewards.” For example, Hebrews 2:1cautions, “Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard , lest at any time we should let them slip.” To what is the reference “therefore?” It refers to verse fourteen of Chapter one: “…to minister for them who shall be heirs of ‘salvation?'” Clearly this IS speaking about salvation and the consequent caution about it listed in Heb 2:1.

    Comment by R.E.R. — December 8, 2011 @ 9:10 pm | Reply

  88. after examining the post on this blog about (john 10:27-28) we including Dan Corner and other people gave our opinions on it now lets see what the prophet Isaiah and Jeremiah says about it (Isaiah 66:22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (Isaiah 27:3) I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day. (Isaiah 58:11) And the LORD shall guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones: and you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
    lets examing this important verse here ,notice he said you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not,and compare this with (john 7:38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (John 4:14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.(jeremiah 2:13) For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed themselves out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (john 4:10) Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    Comment by Anonymous — December 15, 2011 @ 9:40 am | Reply

  89. Our point is that we need the whole counsel of God, all of His encouraging verses as well as His dire warnings.

    As we come across positive passages that doesn’t mean conditional aspects and warnings about salvation don’t remain. Each and every verse doesn’t mention caution, but caution is not negated since the narrow way is threaded thematically throughout Scripture. Encouraging passages often present us simply with instances of “transformation-deletion,” surely not dismissing care about how we live before God, our Creator. It’s written, for example, in Phil 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” That’s wonderful assurance.

    Yet starting just three verses later we see something of the other side of the coin in Paul’s inspired prayer of v v 9-11 including,”… THAT YE MAY approve things that are excellent: THAT YE MAY BE sincere and without offence TILL the day of Christ…UNTO the glory and praise of God.” If it were just “once saved, always saved!” there would be no need for Paul’s inspired prayer.

    We, ourselves, do something similar in our own speaking. For example, “Shut the door!” is understood without saying, “It’s gotten cold. Therefore Joey get up and walk across the room and close the door by pressing against the wooden door until it fits into the door frame. Then turn the door knob to the left until it clicks and locks shut. Otherwise here in our little room we’ll freeze to death.”

    Throughout Scripture God flies His truth on two wings about good AND evil; duty AND deception; belief AND love (of God and man) [both positive and necessary]; belief AND obedience [both positive and necessary]; the narrow way AND the wide way; the positive AND the negative; blessings AND curses; encouragements AND warnings; receiving the Gospel AND yet enduring in it [both positive and necessary]; professing AND yet Consummation [both positive and necessary]; heaven AND hell…

    Therefore, God’s truth consists of BOTH “A Great Confidence AND A Great Caution.” No wonder He says: He that hath an ear, let him hear… Beware… Take heed… Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in , and shall not be able… There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out…

    Believe God and His Word and be saved.

    Whereas Satan laughs about those who believe and say “If you received Him, no matter what, it’s “once saved, always saved!”

    Comment by R.E.R. — December 29, 2011 @ 10:01 am | Reply

  90. once again im being misreprensented as using scripture to defend OSAS okay our last responder posted Galations 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. now before we assume that this is being taught to christians lets find out why this was brought up. The apostle does not say that this had in fact ever occurred; but he merely makes a supposition. If such a thing should or could occur, it would follow that you had fallen from grace.since he makes the falling from grace a consequence of that. But did Paul mean to teach that? Did he mean to affirm that any man in fact had been, or could be justified by his own obedience to the Law? Let his own writings answer; (Romans 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 9:31) but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. (Hebrews 4:1) Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. (Hebrews 12:15) See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.Now with that being said unless he held that, then this passage does not prove that anyone who has ever been a true Christian has fallen away. The fair interpretation of the passage does not demand that. Its simple and obvious meaning is, that if a man who has been a professed Christian should be justified by his own conformity to the Law, and adopt that mode of justification, then that would amount to a rejection of the mode of salvation by Christ, and would be a renouncing of the plan of justification by grace. The two systems cannot be united. The adoption of the one is, in fact, a rejection of the other. Christ will be “a whole Saviour,” or none. This passage, therefore. cannot be adduced to prove that any true Christian has in fact fallen away from grace, unless it proves also that man may be justified by the deeds of the Law, contrary to the repeated declarations of Paul himself. The word “grace” here, does not mean grace in the sense of personal religion, it means the “system” of salvation by grace, in contradistinction from that by merit or by works – the system of the gospel. so my friends before you keep posting these confusing scripture at least let the people thats veiwing these these scripture make sure its not contridicting other scriptures (1 corinthians 14:33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Galations 5:4 has nothing to do with refuting ephesians 2:8. heres the answer to ephesians 2:8 (Romans 1:7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (romans 3:24) and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (romans 3:25) God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,i through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished (romans 3:26) he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (romans 3:27) Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

    Comment by Anonymous — January 13, 2012 @ 7:16 am | Reply

  91. Oops by the way I notice that my name appeared as annonymous but the name is O’neal sorry i forgot to post my name since there’s a whole bunch of annonymouses.

    Comment by Anonymous — January 13, 2012 @ 7:24 am | Reply

  92. if i could debate Dan corner i would be glad to stand against him on this never ending doctrine that’s being called doctrine of demons but i dont see anything evil about this doctrine mabye its the way people use it are take advantage of it are something.

    Comment by Anonymous — January 13, 2012 @ 7:27 am | Reply

  93. Dear Anonymous and/or O’neal

    What a lot of straining and verbal contortions to cling to “once saved, always saved!” Not that I know all things, but the doctrine of “once saved, always saved!” is not necessarily always true for many who mistakenly cling to an imagined and faulty comfort that they nor anyone else could die spiritually. They read Luke 15:24, 32 and deny its message and validation by 2 Tim 3:16-17. There are people who read 2 Peter 2:20-22 and fail to accept its clear warning. I heard a minister preach on Heb 6:4-6, read all five of the hard-hitting phrases and after each of the Holy Spirit’s inspired warnings, falsely preach just the opposite of the text! Why did he do that? He did it because the pastor is backed into a corner by OSAS! (Once saved, always saved!)

    Just last Wednesday a man in a small group heard 1 Tim 1:19-20 about shipwrecked faith and, instead of accepting it as God’s example for us he remarked that shipwrecked faith had nothing to do with salvation! Unbelievable! People believe what they want to believe.

    As a matter of truth, the first use of “once saved, always saved!” was by Satan when he deceitfully pronounced “Ye shall not surely die” to Eve. And, it has been an extremely effective and enormously destructive ploy by the devil ever since. Many people want their comfort food of macaroni and cheese, and they also relish their ears being tickled with a false doctrine that it is impossible to turn from what could have been their own future salvation.

    Besides Vernon McGee, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, Charles Ryrie…and so forth may I suggest you read William Graham Scroggie, Adam Clarke, A.W. Tozer, J.C. Ryle, Matthew Henry, Richard Baxter…

    Please accept that the Bible is inspired, inspired by the Holy Spirit. God The Holy Spirit does not speak in suppositions nor in the hypothetical. Rather He gives factual truth. It is the manipulators, the false teachers and preachers, some even unaware themselves, who seek to turn truth into pretzel-shaped contortions whereof they designate Scriptural text that conflicts with their perspective by too frequently dismissing the bothersome passage as merely hypothetical or some alleged supposition.

    Rely on the whole counsel of God. “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” means weeping and gnashing of teeth and “forever and ever” means what it says.

    More than indications, we have proof that the sloganeering of “once saved, always saved!” is not always the case. Eternal life can be forfeited. 1 Tim 4:1 states, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,
    that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith…” To depart from the faith is not “once saved, always saved!”

    Being of the OSAS persuasion, William MacDonald writes in his commentary, “The fact that these people depart or fall away from the faith does not mean they were ever saved [that they had real faith], but simply that they had professed to be Christians,” (MacDonald, William; Believer’s Bible Commentary; p. 2091; Thomas Nelson Publishers; Nashville; c. 1995.) [His writing is like the verbal contortions above by the previous writer about Gal 5:4].

    Now, more than sharpening our pencils, let’s sharpen our minds. The Bible declares that the Spirit speaketh. That’s God! How does He speak? “Expressly” which means “for the express purpose” or “in an explicit manner.” The Spirit’s words leave nothing to mere implication. We know we’re in “the latter times” which would be any time subsequent from the Apostle Paul’s writing. Yes, we are in the latter times. Click! We can understand that. “Some shall depart from the faith.” Click! We can also understand that. Yet MacDonald would have us believe that some did not really depart from the faith because, according to him, they never had it, just a phoney profession. What straining to deny what “the Spirit speaketh expressly!” It’s all a silliness from reliance upon the “once saved, always saved!” slogan. Ask yourself: “Can I depart from Kansas City unless my presence is in Kansas City?” MacDonald wants readers to believe that some can depart from the faith when they never really had the faith! Obviously, we don’t depart from what we never had! And so it is. Along with this, many preachers and churches hold to unconditional security and twisted Calvinism. Thereby they seriously fail to show spiritual care and duty toward members’ eternal welfare.

    Comment by R.E.R. — January 28, 2012 @ 8:49 pm | Reply

    • Robert,

      I really like your writing style, and agree with almost everything you say. Very nice!

      Dan Corner does say this about Hebrews 6, which I discuss in comment #17: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hebrews.htm

      I think Dan is right about Hebrews 6, that it is a special case — irreversible. But he puts Hebrews 10 in the same category. I still think Hebrews 10 applies to everyone, so that if we die having willful, unrepentant sin, we are in the terrible situation the writers to Hebrews describes.

      I checked out your bio on your site. I don’t know if you saw mine. I was raised Wisconsin synod Lutheran, so it was interesting to see your background looks somewhat similar.

      Thanks for posting!

      jeff

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — January 29, 2012 @ 4:34 pm | Reply

  94. Well im not excatly sure about who says that its impossible to depart from the faith but after a theral research and examination of this my understanding to this is that he uses this,ill paste it the key words here (1 tim 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; The Greek word here – ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai – is that from which we have derived the word “apostatize,” and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would “apostatize” from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc. The use of the word “some,” here τινες tines – does not imply that the number would be small. The meaning is, that “certain persons” would thus depart, or that “there would be” an apostasy of the kind here mentioned, (1 john 4:1) Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 john 4:2) This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, (1 john 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Comment by Anonymous — January 29, 2012 @ 1:13 pm | Reply

  95. Dan Corner also just like everyone else has started at (Hebrews 6:4) but it actually starts at verse 1 so ill begin with verse 1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
    as was stated in the previous chapter, you ought to be capable of comprehending the higher doctrines of religion; since those doctrines are adapted to those who have been for a considerable time professors of Christianity, and have had opportunities of growing in knowledge and grace – as much as strong meat is for those of mature years – leave now the elements of Christian doctrine, and go on to understand its higher mysteries.” The idea is, that to those who had so long been acquainted with the way of salvation, the elements of Christianity were no more adapted than milk was for grown persons. Notice how the apostle says that we should leave the elementary principles of the doctrines of Christ and move on this is read in (Hebrews 5:11) We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. (Hebrews 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. the apostle here tellings us that we should move on to maturity and not stay in this position anymore. (Hebrews 6:2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. This is mentioned as the third element or principle of the Christian religion. we find this out in (mark 7:3) For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, (mark 7:4) and when they come from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.) It is supposed also, that they were in the practice of baptizing proselytes to their religion; this is found here (matthew 3:1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, (matthew 3:2) And saying, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (matthew 3:3) For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (matthew 3:5) Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, (matthew 3:6) And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. Since they made so much of various kinds of ablution, it was important that the true doctrine on the subject should be stated as one of the elements of the Christian religion, that they might be recalled from superstition, and that they might enjoy the benefits of what was designed to be an important aid to piety – the true doctrine of baptisms. It will be observed that the plural form is used here – “baptisms.” There are two baptisms whose necessity is taught by the Christian religion – baptism by water, and by the Holy Spirit; the first of which is an emblem of the second.(Hebrews 6:3) And this will we do, if God permits.We will make these advances toward a higher state of knowledge and piety. Paul had confidence that they would do it (see Hebrews 6:9-10), and though they had lingered long around the elements of Christian knowledge, he believed that they would yet go on to make higher attainments.

    (hebrews 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (Hebrews 6:5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Hebrews 6:6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.

    Comment by O'neal — January 30, 2012 @ 7:56 am | Reply

  96. The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.
    (1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians. (2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be “to become converted;” not to warn them of the danger of “falling away.” Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they could not be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they could not be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away – because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God? (3) as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase “it is impossible” obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that “the thing could not be done;” that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word – ἀδύνατον adunaton – occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; We find out in these scriptures that it cannot be done (Matthew 19:24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:25) When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (Romans 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that is, to save people; (Hebrews 6:18) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
    These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable; that it could not be done. And if this be the meaning, then it proves that if those referred to should fall away, they could never be renewed. Their case was hopeless, and they must perish: that is, if a true Christian should apostatize, or fall from grace, “he never could be renewed again,” and could not be saved. Paul did not teach that he might fall away and be renewed again as often as he pleased. He had other views of the grace of God than this; and he meant to teach, that if a man should once cast off true religion, his case was hopeless, and he must perish; and by this solemn consideration – the only one that would be effectual in such a case – he meant to guard them against the danger of apostasy.

    Comment by O'neal — January 30, 2012 @ 8:13 am | Reply

  97. The answer to (Hebrews 6:4) starts at verse 1 which says this (Hebrews 6:1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, the whole time Paul is giving a warning about drawing back into all these things which is impracticable and is telling us that we should move on to spiritual maturity. It saddens me to see how Dan corner doesn’t have nowhere in his site anything mention about verse 1 which is the starting point but skipped all these important passages and jumped into verse 4.

    Comment by O'neal — January 30, 2012 @ 8:21 am | Reply

  98. (Hebrews 10:26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, If after we are converted and become true Christians we should apostatize, it would be impossible to be recovered again, for there would be no other sacrifice for sin; no way by which we could be saved. This passage, however, like Hebrews 6:4-6, has given rise to much difference of opinion. But that the above is the correct interpretation, seems evident to me from the following considerations: (1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine. (2) it accords with the scope of the Epistle, which is, to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected. (3) it is in accordance with the fair meaning of the language – the words “after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,” referring more naturally to true conversion than to any other state of mind. (4) the sentiment would not be correct if it referred to any but real Christians. It would not be true that one who had been somewhat enlightened, and who then sinned “wilfully,” must look on fearfully to the judgment without a possibility of being saved. There are multitudes of cases where such persons are saved. They “wilfully” resist the Holy Spirit; they strive against him; they for a long time refuse to yield, but they are brought again to reflection, and are led to give their hearts to God. (5) it is true, and always will be true, that if a sincere Christian should apostatize he could never be converted again; see the notes on Hebrews 6:4-6. The reasons are obvious. He would have tried the only plan of salvation, and it would have failed. He would have embraced the Saviour, and there would not have been efficacy enough in his blood to keep him, and there would be no more powerful Saviour and no more efficacious blood of atonement. He would have renounced the Holy Spirit, and would have shown that his influences were not effectual to keep him, and there would be no other agent of greater power to renew and save him after he had apostatized. For these reasons it seems clear to me that this passage refers to true Christians, and that the doctrine here taught is, that if such an one should apostatize, he must look forward only to the terrors of the judgment, and to final condemnation. This and this only is the sin unto death by which one can never be restored if it were possible. (1 john 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (1 john 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. Now If the sin here mentioned refers to “temporal” death, it means such a sin that temporal death must inevitably follow, either by the disease which it has produced, or by a judicial sentence where there was no hope of pardon or of a commutation of the punishment; if it refers to death in the future world, the second death, then it means such a sin as is unpardonable. That this last is the reference here seems to me to be probable, if not clear, from the following considerations: I’ll put in another post.

    Comment by O'neal — January 30, 2012 @ 2:12 pm | Reply

  99. (1) There is such a sin referred to in the New Testament, a sin for which there is forgiveness “neither in this life nor the life to come.” See the notes at Matthew 12:31-32. Compare Mark 3:29. If there is such a sin, there is no impropriety in supposing that John would refer to it here. (a) It cannot mean “unto spiritual death,” that is, to a continuance in sin, for how could that be known? and if such a case occurred, why would it be improper to pray for it? Besides, the phrase “a sin unto spiritual death,” or “unto continuance in sin,” is one that is unmeaning. It seems probable, therefore, to me, that the reference here is to the sin against the Holy Spirit, and that John means here to illustrate the duty and the power of prayer, by showing that for any sin short of that, however aggravated, it was their duty to pray that a brother might be forgiven. Though it might not be easy to determine what was the unpardonable sin, and John does not say that those to whom he wrote could determine that with certainty, yet there were many sins which were manifestly not of that aggravated character, and for those sins it was proper to pray.

    Comment by O'neal — January 30, 2012 @ 2:19 pm | Reply

  100. To those interested:

    God is indeed long-suffering, probably for the gospel to become available to all people and of His mercy, wanting people to repent.

    However, our heavenly Father is also a God of limitations. We can know this from numerous examples and judgments, for example, in Judges with its display of cycles; 1 Samuel and its time of transition; 1 Kings, division of the kingdom; 2 Kings, captivities of the kingdom; Jeremiah, Judah’s last hour; lamentations; Joel, the great and terrible day of the Lord; Amos, the judgment of Israel; Obadiah, the judgment of Edom; aspects of judgment in Micah; Nahum, judgment of Nineveh, and so on.

    In the New Testament, 1 Corinthians gives important reminders against carnal living; First Thessalonians calls for holiness in light of Christ’s forthcoming return; James speaks about having a faith that works; the need to be on guard against false teachers is given in 2 Peter and also, according to 2 John, our warning to avoid fellowship with false teachers; and then in Jude that it’s necessary for a believer to contend for the faith which, of course, really wouldn’t be necessary if it were truly just “once saved, always saved!”

    I say all of this because truly today is the day of salvation. What if we’re in an unexpected fatal accident? Or, we might experience a stroke as did a loved one in my family who no longer had her memory, speech and reckoning of mind.

    For these reasons and more, I regard the Hebrews passage whereof it says “impossible” to mean impossible. In humility I don’t fight the Word.

    Admittedly I, too, at one time casually adhered to the widespread teaching of “once saved, always saved!” no matter what a person does as always the outcome. That’s what I had been told, even by preachers!

    It was only after reading the Bible regularly and seriously that I was allowed to understand many passages which soundly refute OSAS. What’s needed is the whole counsel of God Who flies His truth on two wings. We see this dichotomy in sovereignty as well as man’s responsibility of what’s done with and through His grace. Before us there’s both good and evil; the positive and the negative; the encouraging and the dire warnings; blessings and curses; heaven and hell. To those who will receive this truth it becomes apparent that John Bunyan was right in Pilgrim’s Progress, that believers have a great confidence AND a great caution. These features are intertwined relationally with impact upon the other. They are not antithetical in purpose but rather are most assuredly within the core of God’s unfolding Biblical program.

    Don’t be deceived, as are many, for the either/or logical fallacy. Very simply, right before us, actually quite obvious, there wouldn’t be all the warnings in the Bible unless there were a need for them. This, in itself, proves the fallacy of today’s prevalent ease of belief upon an initial momentary profession – which is necessary – as if that’s all that’s needed when it’s really just the inception toward reaching the celestial city.

    Notice 2 Peter 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, BE ALL THE MORE EAGER TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL, and YOU WILL RECEIVE A RICH WELCOME INTO THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.” Really?! What does this mean?

    Go to verse 3 and following, especially v v 5-7, “For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.” That’s our call. May you and I know this truth and then remember and put into practice God’s guidance.

    Yet some people say, “I’m sealed by the Holy Spirit and nothing can keep me out of heaven.”

    The accurate and helpful response is to think of our need to be Signed, Sealed and Delivered! I write this since being sealed means being in the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit within one’s own body as its temple ( 1 Cor 6:19-20) which is to be a holy place. Therefore, the thought of any number of sins lets us know whether we truly are sealed, that is, whether there’s the LORD’S ownership, His power in effect, and whether He’s glorified. Otherwise, we’ve been co-opted and it’s a matter of deception.

    God bless you and me as we seek to follow Him in His will.

    Comment by R.E.R. — January 31, 2012 @ 3:27 pm | Reply

  101. What’s needed is belief that is BELIEV I N G; faith that is FAITH F U LN E S S, the present indicative, continuing.

    For example, I find it helpful to turn to the book of Revelation and consider all its necessary verses about “overcoming.”

    Also, please note that Matt 10:22 doesn’t say, (And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he who had a one-time momentary profession, regardless of how he lived thereafter, shall be saved.) No, here’s the description: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that ENDURETH TO THE END shall be saved. Nor does Matthew 24:13 say, (But he who had a one-time profession, the same shall be saved.) No, here’s what God says, “But he that shall ENDURE UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved.” Unlike the widespread vogue of today’s teaching with an emphasis that all we have to do is receive Christ, which, of course, we do have to do, and then we’re home free, true believers are focused instead upon the ending, not the beginning. Therefore, in the same way, Rom 2:7 doesn’t say, (To those who once-upon-a-time accepted Jesus will most certainly end up with an immortality of eternal life.) No, the glory-seeker, according to God’s counsel, is characterized in this way: “To them who by patient CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.”

    An interesting observation. After I came to a different conviction about conditional, [a word that OSAS people can't tolerate] aspects concerning salvation some OSAS people became cold and unloving. One of them who used to call me “friend” every time he answered phone calls from me now won’t even speak to me. Another cut off interaction too and didn’t follow-through with what he said he’d do, not keeping his word. After three or four years of not responding to our family Christmas greeting, we obviously recognize their changed behavior. Once they demonstrated love. Now they don’t. Yet, they’re resting in “once saved, always saved!” I judge no man’s salvation. Yet the apparent change does make me think about 1 John 3:1-24 which lets us know who will and who won’t be going to heaven.

    Comment by R.E.R. — February 1, 2012 @ 1:25 pm | Reply

  102. Hi Jeff ~ I appreciate your site and I like your comments. Thanks!

    I just read your above comments and wanted to rewrite, in a better way, my earlier writing. I tried to soften it as I don’t want to come across as harsh. Anyway, I see that I’ve ended up with a lengthy piece. Therefore, if you want to delete my earlier postings or not feature this entry I can accept that. It’s your site. ~And yes, I was Lutheran so there’s been a big change in my belief.

    Well, here’s what I thought was my improved writing, but you’re right about length, and I do understand. Thanks, R.E.R.

    Not that I know everything, but I do have concern about the doctrine of “once saved, always saved!” as necessarily always true when its proponents say a person can’t die spiritually. I read Luke 15:24, 32 and am unable to deny its message and validation by 2 Tim 3:16-17. It’s the same with 2 Peter 2:20-22 which, to me, speaks a warning. I heard a minister preach on Heb 6:4-6, read all five of what I should think would be attention-getting phrases, and after each one, the minister stated exactly the opposite of what the text says. I asked myself, “Why did he do that?” Possibly he did it because the pastor is backed into a corner by “once saved, always saved!” (OSAS).

    A man in a small group heard 1 Tim 1:19-20 about “shipwrecked faith” and, apparently instead of accepting it as an example for us, he remarked that “shipwrecked faith” had nothing to do with salvation!

    Genesis, I believe, in effect, contains the first use of “once saved, always saved!” spoken by Satan when he pronounced “Ye shall not surely die.” Isn’t it worthy of consideration whether this denial of spiritual death remains an enormously destructive ploy of the devil?

    May I suggest that besides Vernon McGee, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, Charles Ryrie…and so forth readings from William Graham Scroggie, Adam Clarke, A.W. Tozer, J.C. Ryle, Matthew Henry, Richard Baxter… In my opinion, they seem to be on target, Biblically.

    My belief is that I accept the Bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don’t think it likely that God The Holy Spirit speaks in suppositions or the hypothetical but rather in the stability of truth.

    The Bible does warn about those who promote falsehood, Matt 7:15-16, 21-23; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 2 Tim 4:2-4; Rev 22:18-19 and other places. Manipulators, false teachers and false preachers, some even unaware themselves as being false, turn truth into pretzel-shaped distortions. Sometimes they dismiss bothersome passages as merely hypothetical or of some alleged supposition.

    In all of this I think it’s a good idea for me to rely on the whole counsel of God. “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” means weeping and gnashing of teeth and “forever and ever” means what it says.

    More than indications, it seems that there’s proof that the slogan of “once saved, always saved!” is not always the case. 1 Tim 4:1 indicates that eternal life can be forfeited: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith…” How can I deny that to depart from the faith is not “once saved, always saved!”?

    Being of the OSAS persuasion, William MacDonald writes in his commentary, “The fact that these people depart or fall away from the faith does not mean they were ever saved [that they had real faith], but simply that they had professed to be Christians,” (MacDonald, William; Believer’s Bible Commentary; p. 2091; Thomas Nelson Publishers; Nashville; c. 1995.)

    I want to think carefully about this. The Bible declares that the Spirit speaketh. That’s God! How does He speak? “Expressly” which means “for the express purpose” or “in an explicit manner.” The Spirit’s words leave nothing to mere implication. I know we’re in “the latter times” which would be any time subsequent from the Apostle Paul’s writing. Yes, I am in the latter times. Click! I can understand that. “Some shall depart from the faith.” Click! I can also understand that.

    Yet MacDonald would have us believe that some did not really depart from the faith because, according to him, they never had it, just a phony profession. What straining to deny what “the Spirit speaketh expressly!” It’s from reliance upon the “once saved, always saved!” slogan. Ask yourself: “Can I depart from Kansas City unless my presence is in Kansas City?” MacDonald is asking readers to believe that some can depart from the faith when they never really had the faith! Obviously, we don’t depart from what we never had!

    Along with this, it appears that many preachers and churches hold to unconditional security and twisted Calvinism. Thereby a probability comes about of seriously failing to show spiritual care and duty toward members’ eternal welfare.

    ————————–
    To those interested:

    God is indeed long-suffering for the gospel to become available to all people and of His mercy, wanting people to repent.

    However, our heavenly Father is also a God of limitations. We can know this from numerous examples and judgments, for example, in Judges with its display of cycles; 1 Samuel and its time of transition; 1 Kings, division of the kingdom; 2 Kings, captivities of the kingdom; Jeremiah, Judah’s last hour; lamentations; Joel, the great and terrible day of the Lord; Amos, the judgment of Israel; Obadiah, the judgment of Edom; aspects of judgment in Micah; Nahum, judgment of Nineveh, and so on.

    In the New Testament, 1 Corinthians gives important reminders against carnal living; First Thessalonians calls for holiness in light of Christ’s forthcoming return; James speaks about having a faith that works; the need to be on guard against false teachers is given in 2 Peter and also, according to 2 John, our warning to avoid fellowship with false teachers; and then in Jude that it’s necessary for a believer to contend for the faith which, of course, doesn’t seem necessary if it were “once saved, always saved!”

    I say all of this because “today is the day of salvation.” What if I were in an unexpected fatal accident? Or, I might experience a stroke as did my loved one in our family who no longer had her memory, speech and reckoning of mind.

    This partly shapes my thinking for why I regard the Hebrews 6 passage whereof it says “impossible” to mean impossible. In humility, I don’t want to fight the Word.

    Admittedly, I, too, at one time casually adhered to the widespread teaching of “once saved, always saved!” no matter what a person does. I believed that since that’s what I had been told, even by preachers!

    Fortunately, after Biblical preaching and reading the Bible regularly and seriously I came to understand and accept that many passages soundly refute OSAS as always the outcome.

    Very wise men, A.W. Tozer and Roger J. Magnuson, in effect, indicated that what’s needed is the whole counsel of God Who flies His truth on two wings. We see this dichotomy in sovereignty as well as man’s responsibility of what’s done with and through His grace. Before us, there’s both good and evil; the positive and the negative; the encouraging and the dire warnings; blessings and curses; heaven and hell…eternal life and damnation.

    To those who have this perspective, it falls in line with what John Bunyan set before the world in his great classic, Pilgrim’s Progress.

    The Bible importantly makes sense. The believer has “a great confidence AND a great caution.” These features are intertwined relationally with impact upon the other, not antithetical in purpose. Rather, the duality is within the core of God’s unfolding Biblical program.

    Again, I certainly don’t know everything. However, I do know that I can’t save myself, and I do know how to be saved.

    Like Joseph, I want to live in the seven words of Gen 41:16, “It is not in me: God shall…” This involves an “admission” of my lack of ability, followed by an “acknowledgment” that it is God. Together this leads to “assurance.” Amazingly, Joseph’s spiritual secret can be transplanted to me. Wonderful, as Joseph’s spiritual secret is a necessity for sanctification, service and salvation.
    ——————————

    The “either/or” logical fallacy causes deception. That’s why very simply, right before us, actually quite obvious, there wouldn’t be many warnings in the Bible unless there were a need for them and the inverse, negative outcome of them happening. This, in itself, proves the fallacy of today’s prevalent ease of belief upon an initial momentary profession as all that’s needed. That’s the inception, not the end, before reaching the celestial city. As Magnuson succinctly stated, there’s a forgotten metaphor, a forgotten mission, and a forgotten “must.” I’m a pilgrim on a path and there’s a great peril. The mission is to reach the Celestial City. The “must” is righteousness, imputed, imparted and inspected.

    2 Peter 1:10-11 catches my attention. “Therefore, my brothers, BE ALL THE MORE EAGER TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL, and YOU WILL RECEIVE A RICH WELCOME INTO THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.” I think I see what this means when I go to verse 3 and following, especially verses 5-7, “For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.” Now I understand to what I’m called. May I not only know this truth but remember and put it into practice, even when someone offends me.

    Finally, I’ve been thinking about being “sealed by the Holy Spirit.” My understanding is that I need to be Signed, Sealed and Delivered! Being sealed means being in the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit within one’s own body as its temple which is to be a holy place (1 Cor 6:19-20). Therefore, the thought of any number of sins lets me know whether I’m truly sealed, that is, whether there’s the LORD’S ownership, His power in effect, and whether He’s glorified.

    Without this, it’s a matter of being co-opted by the devil and a matter of deception.

    God bless all of us as we seek to follow Him in His will.

    ———————–

    What’s needed is belief that is BELIEVING; faith that is FAITHFULNESS, present indicative, continuing.

    For example, I find it helpful to turn to the book of Revelation and consider its verses about my need for “overcoming.”

    Also, I didn’t use to fully notice it, but now I note that Matt 10:22 doesn’t say, (And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he who had a one-time momentary profession, regardless of how he lived thereafter, shall be saved.) No, here’s the description: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that ENDURETH TO THE END shall be saved. Nor does Matthew 24:13 say, (But he who had a one-time profession, the same shall be saved.) Rather, here’s what God says, “But he that shall ENDURE UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved.” As you and I know, today’s widespread vogue of teaching/preaching is an emphasis that all we have to do is receive Christ and that’s it!

    It surely is required to receive Christ as our Savior for salvation, but that’s the inception, not the end. As a believer I am focused upon the ending, not the beginning. Therefore, in the same way, Rom 2:7 doesn’t say, (To those who once-upon-a-time accepted Jesus will most certainly end up with an immortality of eternal life.)

    Instead, “the glory-seeker,” according to God’s counsel, is characterized in this way: “To them who by patient CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life,” specifically talking about salvation, not just rewards.

    My journey has had reactive turns toward me. An observation that saddens me is this. After I came to a different conviction from OSAS, that there are conditional aspects about being in Christ, some OSAS people became cold and unloving. One used to call me “friend” every time he answered my phone calls.

    Now he won’t even communicate with me. Another cut off interaction as well and didn’t follow-through with what he said he’d do, not keeping his word.

    After three or four years of no response to our family Christmas greeting, we obviously recognize their changed behavior. It doesn’t seem loving. These are people who insist that it’s “once saved, always saved!”

    I do not judge their or anyone else’s salvation.

    However, when I read and meditate upon 1 John 3:1-24 it does make me think, in a general sense, about who will and who won’t be going to heaven.

    To anyone taking the time to read this, thanks!

    Love in Christ ~ R.E.R.

    Comment by R.E.R. — February 1, 2012 @ 7:55 pm | Reply

    • Robert,

      Yes, this is really long, but you do have a fluid writing style, and you carefully think things through. And you actually break sentences into paragraphs too. I did scan parts, though. You did start to lose me a little bit. But otherwise I read every word.

      I didn’t sense a negative tone in your first piece on this, and I just love some of your phrases:

      My belief is that I accept the Bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don’t think it likely that God The Holy Spirit speaks in suppositions or the hypothetical but rather in the stability of truth.

      The Bible does warn about those who promote falsehood, Matt 7:15-16, 21-23; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 2 Tim 4:2-4; Rev 22:18-19 and other places. Manipulators, false teachers and false preachers, some even unaware themselves as being false, turn truth into pretzel-shaped distortions. Sometimes they dismiss bothersome passages as merely hypothetical or of some alleged supposition.

      In all of this I think it’s a good idea for me to rely on the whole counsel of God. “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” means weeping and gnashing of teeth and “forever and ever” means what it says.

      I think I’m going to make a FreedomQuote post out of your last line. I’ll just say it was written by R.E.R., unless you would like your full name posted. Also, if you want your site linked to it, let me know. I’ll post it after I’m done with this.

      And if you’re on Facebook, please check out my page: http://facebook.com/onecanhappen.  I would love to be fb friends. I’m trying to keep my own posts at fb light, but I’ve gotten into some discussions on other pages, and I don’t mind receiving heavy stuff, myself.

      And have you read my post on who goes to heaven? I think you’d like it:

      Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?

      And I absolutely agree that we’re dealing with willful ignorance:

      WordPower: BEWARE, in the LAST DAYS People Will Be WILLINGLY IGNORANT

      Baruch: “Not only is DECEPTION of the church possible, it WAS PROPHESIED TO HAPPEN!” — Jesus said “IN THE LAST DAYS THE MAJORITY WILL BE DECEIVED, take heed that it doesn’t happen to you” — “FALSE TEACHERS are actually SPEAKING SPELLS with the words of their FALSE DOCTRINES!”

      Willful Ignorance: Actively Resisting the Truth and Truth-tellers

      From Willful Ignorance through Cognitive Dissonance to “Could I Be Wrong?”

      I also believe that almost everyone has evil spirits affecting them, which is a major part of the problem. ‘Christians’ (especially parents or pastors or pastors’ wives) pray that people accept their spiritual teachings without question. And if they’re false teachings, evil spirits answer these prayers, or what I call James-3 curses, which I think is an off-the-charts epidemic problem.

      Many who push OSAS do it.

      I cover this issue a lot on this site, and have a “‘Christians’ Cursing People” category. What else could explain for such complacency on the issue that most affects our lives? Hardly anyone is really willing to make sure that what they’ve been taught is true. And their betting their eternal state on what someone taught them, who was taught by another, etc..

      Most people are just knee-jerk reactive on this subject. They can’t relax in God and carefully study it out — or even just relax and carefully read what we’ve written.

      And many are so angry, and highly opinionated — not really being open to what God is saying. This is demonic. I believe I can prove that ‘Christians’ absolutely can have demons, which is another debated issue:

      Can a Christian Have a Demon? Absolutely! Most Have Many!

      The truth will set us free!

      God bless,

      Jeff Fenske : )

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 2, 2012 @ 8:09 am | Reply

  103. Thanks Jeff. I, too, would like to be friends. I read one part of the Jeff Fenske blog about your challenge and the narrow way and thought it was excellent. I think you’re right on target! It’s encouraging to see someone who isn’t bamboozled by today’s teaching. However, I didn’t know how to e-mail back about that particular article.

    You are much more into computer technology and the means of corresponding than I.

    I am honored that you would be willing to link to my site. Thank you very much. My purpose is to help others, but it’s such a vital topic that I need to remind myself of the importance of not only what I say but how I say it.

    Like you, I also found that I kept finding additional information to add to my “Portrait” writing. At any rate, for the time being I guess R.E.R. is okay. I would like to have my name out there, but so far I don’t know how and haven’t been able to find anyone who can help me get my pages uniform in size, redoing pagination. When I consider my writing smoothly done I’d be happy to have my name disclosed.

    Thanks again ~ R.E.R.

    Comment by R.E.R. — February 2, 2012 @ 1:26 pm | Reply

  104. Is the pre tribulation rapture biblical?

    Comment by Patrick — February 10, 2012 @ 9:55 pm | Reply

  105. Some people think there will be a rapture of believers prior to the tribulation since God allowed for Noah’s company of eight to escape the worldwide flood; the translation of Enoch and the taking of Elijah; the opportunity for Lot’s family to flee; protection of safety for the harlot Rahab; their interpretation of the passage of 1 Thess 4:17; the specific command to await His return given in Matt 24:42, 44 [although this could apply to another time period]. Furthermore, it’s been mentioned that perhaps the rapture sequence would allow Israel time to be restored to the Lord; the notion from Rev 19:14 that believers have to be taken out of the world in order to return as His own with Him [although there are multitudes from preceding generations]; and to keep His own from being tested according to Rev 3:10, and so on.

    On the other hand, the correct perspective may very well be post-tribulation and this, in part, could be the reason for the Bible’s warnings to endure unto the end…to overcome… Also, throughout every generation there have been believers who weren’t removed but martyred, even as were some apostles of Christ.

    It seems careless for believers to casually assume that in their own lives they’ll never have to be concerned about seeing the antichrist or the beast, that that’s for someone else. Thoughts in this direction are presumptuous, too much of being on cruise control. I write this as Bible warnings are not limited to nonbelievers, but believers, too.

    Already in my own life is seen a darkening in and about the world, a declension of societal mores and behavior, an increase in the lack of civility, and Christians increasingly being ridiculed and mocked. Judicial and media legitimizing homosexuality, the widespread lack of family stability and high divorce; the prevalence of open, unashamed co-habitation without marriage and people regarding themselves as Christians who willingly support governmental leaders who are pro-abortion and gay rights are only a few of the indications.

    It could very well happen in our own lifetimes that we won’t have today’s Christian liberties and there could once again come forth great persecution.

    Of the rapture, startling to consider would be the abrupt removal of His own in God-initiated calamitous acts of all sorts of harm and destruction: drivers on freeways and highways removed from their steering wheels of speeding cars; workers taken from engaged machines; pilots and passengers in transatlantic flights; families torn apart…

    Another concern against the “removal before tribulation” perspective is a caution that people tend to seek and relish the easy way out, that they won’t have to suffer, endure, and overcome, all of which the Bible sets forth. For many, it’s ever so comforting to say they’ll be removed from turmoil. It’s the same type of thinking which causes people to feel falsely secure as with the faulty doctrine of “once saved, always saved!” no matter what I do or what happens later in my life.

    As for me, I ask God to help me battle against my own lower nature, not to be overtaken by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. My plea is that I see the importance to “take heed,” “beware,” and not “harden my heart.” I’m to be engaged in the battle, on the Lord’s side. I think Isaac Watts had it right against the notion of going to heaven “on flowery beds of ease” in his remarkable hymn, “Am I a Soldier of the Cross?”

    Comment by R.E.R. — February 12, 2012 @ 6:48 am | Reply

  106. Millions of people have been tackling the highly debated topic of salvation ill post these website video here by which i believe this is an ax laid to the root of the problem

    Comment by esium7 — February 12, 2012 @ 12:38 pm | Reply

  107. Mr Fenske I’ve read your who goes to heaven page and I see a few errors in there, about 3 that’s confusing the whole issue and it needs to be corrected. that’s not all it takes to goto heaven.

    Comment by O'neal — February 13, 2012 @ 7:39 am | Reply

  108. plenty of people also stress the issue that water baptism is required for salvation but is this true? is water baptism really required for salvation? and what about the gift of speaking in tongues? Sorry but thought I might ask since this blog is dealing with salvation thanks.

    Comment by Patrick — February 16, 2012 @ 11:24 am | Reply

  109. Hi Patrick,

    Water baptism does not save. It is Christ alone. To have Christ and the ampersand with anything else following it would be in effect that Christ’s ultimate sacrifice was not totally sufficient.
    ——————-

    Two blocks from my house is a beautiful church that has signs on the north and south front ends of its property. Each sign often features some message. The current one proclaims:

    “Life rooted in Jesus can’t be uprooted.”

    Understanding that constituted within “life” is one’s living, I think the message is true. The words “rooted” and “uprooted” are important considerations but essentially key is the phrase “in Jesus” which distinguishes the difference between being and remaining “rooted” rather than “uprooted.”

    I judge no person’s salvation, but it is worthwhile to consider what might or might not be an outcome of salvation. For example, lets say an individual might start out as a professed believer in a Baptist church, sing in the choir, and from all indications be serving and living in and for the Lord Jesus Christ.

    However, some years later this individual came to have great fame and wealth.

    During and thereafter the youthful Baptist-now turned-celebrity in his or her life entered a deepening declension into sensuality and rampant drug abuse, actually squandering a significant fortune for what was now the individual’s small letter “g” of god, overcome, spent, ending up dead.

    It needs to be pondered whether such a “life,” one’s living, remained “in Jesus,” rooted or uprooted. 1 John 2:24 and 2 John 9 give the answer.

    Comment by R.E.R. — February 17, 2012 @ 11:48 am | Reply

  110. Thanks for the response, I grew up being taught by Pentecostals that speaking in tongues is evidence proving that one has the holy spirit but throughout my entire life I never once spoke in tongues but they say im not saved if im not speaking in tongues this concept is very confusing to me because many people that do speak in tongues by which is like saying that only they’re the ones that’s being led by the holy spirit and not others who aren’t. I tried doing some research on Dan Corner’s evangelical outreach website but i couldn’t find no scriptures proving if speaking in tongues is evidence that only such have the holy spirit. I still don’t think such people has to speak in tongues to prove that they have the holy spirit cause that would mean all my efforts of trying to live according to the will of god would be in vain. If you are any other person can post scriptures for me on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.

    Comment by Patrick — February 17, 2012 @ 12:56 pm | Reply

    • Patrick,

      Good question. There is a lot of deception out there. This is a widespread fallacy.

      Praying in tongues is a sign of being born-again (though I think a counterfeit can be done through demonic power to), that one has the Holy Spirit enabling them to do so — but this is true of other gifts of the Spirit too.

      Also, praying in tongues doesn’t guarantee ones salvation at all. Most people who are born-again, whether they speak in tongues or not, are currently willfully sinning sins that lead to death and will have their names removed from the Book of Life if they don’t repent and overcome, living in the Son — Rev. 3:1-5 and many other scriptures that I list in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?

      But praying in tongues will help you overcome sin and successfully deal with demons so you will go to heaven. Any born-again believer can and should speak in tongues, but most aren’t, for one reason or another.

      I pray in tongues many times every single day, and started regularly praying in tongues in 1981, when I was explained how it worked, finally. Praying in the Spirit is one of the most important things I do. Jude .20 & 21:

      But you, beloved, keep building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

      Most people who have prayed in tongues aren’t praying enough.

      And some are confused, thinking that it shouldn’t be this easy, so they’re not even sure they got the gift, but they did, when they spoke the words that were in their mouth, which they didn’t make up.

      It really is very simple, but it does take childlike faith to speak the words God gives you, which really do seem to just bypass the brain and be in the mouth.

      Just do it. If you asked God to be able to, you already have the gift. It’s up to you. God won’t make us prophecy or speak in tongues, etc.. We have to speak the words He gives us.

      I have a bunch of posts on this site in the “Pray Perfectly in Tongues” category, in the pull-down menu on the right.

      This is one of the best things you can do to help you overcome now and what is coming, because praying in tongues helps us deal with evil spirits. God doesn’t want us to see the demons or we’d freak. Many don’t understand how powerful this gift is.

      Without this gift, I probably would have been dead long ago, for I get James-3 cursed a lot. And I’m able to help many get free by praying for them in tongues. This is from my Let Us Be ONE prophecy (if you believe in prophecy. I didn’t make it up): A Gift that Will Set Many Free! (A Death Warrant is Out for Your Souls)

      If you have any questions about it, please feel free to contact me. My email address is near the end of my About Jeff Fenske post, linked near the top of the column on the right.

      God bless!

      May we overcome and be ‘ONE,’ together in Christ!

      Power to the peaceful!
      Grace to the humble!

      Jeff : )

      Comment by Jeff Fenske — February 18, 2012 @ 4:06 am | Reply

  111. I feel as though I need to ask this question but first ill put these scriptures (luke 9:23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (luke 14:27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (luke 14:28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? (luke 14:29) Lest perhaps, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, (luke 9:60) Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but you go and preach the kingdom of God. how hard is to hard? How much is to much? how can I know if im fulfilling all the requirements to meet gods standards I live in fear feeling insecure because I dont know if im doing good enough to sustain my Salvation I dont wanna have my foot at the door and at the last minute do something wrong and loss my salvation. My next question what must one do if he dont get a chance to repent to get his salvation back if something tragic were to happen is all hope over? That individuals trusting submitting and enduring faith would’ve all been for nothing? Sound fearful but sorry I just thought id ask cause dont wanna live in fear not sure if im really gonna get to heaven are not if a mistake can kick me out and dont get a repenting chance God Forbid Though.

    Comment by Patrick — February 22, 2012 @ 1:29 pm | Reply

  112. I have another question that I forgot to ask. Is Grace an unmerited Favor like most really believe it to be I have few scriptures I came across that contradicts that idea (Titus 2:11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (2 timothy 1:10) but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. (Psalms 67:1) God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah. (Psalms 67:2) That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.

    Comment by Patrick — March 3, 2012 @ 7:03 am | Reply

  113. There’s a word in the bible called reprobates (2 Cor 13:5) what is the meaning of being a reprobate and can true born again believer’s become reprobates?

    Comment by Patrick — March 29, 2012 @ 6:30 pm | Reply

  114. If I could ask Mr Fenske one question it would be Mr Fenske is all your righteousness filthy rags are not? I hope he doesn’t say it’s not

    Comment by O'neal — April 7, 2012 @ 1:10 pm | Reply

  115. has anyone heard about the death of Dave Hunt?

    Comment by Anonymous — April 16, 2013 @ 6:29 pm | Reply

  116. It’s been reported that Dave Hunt has passed away.

    Comment by Anonymous — April 16, 2013 @ 6:30 pm | Reply


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